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this program is a legacy program which

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was recorded some time ago

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views and subject matter are products of

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the time in which they were recorded and

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may not reflect current news or cultural

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greetings my fellow mystery loving

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friends

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and welcome

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thanks for joining us once again here

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tonight

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we are sort of broadcasting from a new

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home base

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a secret and secure location

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we are somewhere in the deep wooded

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mountains of pennsylvania

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and that's all i can say

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and my friends except for the sort of

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hillbilly ramshackle

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connection that we will have to upload

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this episode

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we are completely and totally off the

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grid here now

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i can think of no better place my

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friends than this

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mysterious place

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to bring you

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what is perhaps and i think will be for

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some time

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the greatest episode of the midnight

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hour that we have produced to date

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because tonight tonight i'm going to get

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to speak to none other than richard doty

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now if you look into ufos

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alien crash landings extraterrestrial

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visitations secret government projects

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government cover-ups

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this man's name comes up time and time

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and time again

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there was a time when i was reading a

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lot of books that i couldn't believe the

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number of times his name came up

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he has been featured in many films most

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notably

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the mirage men one of my personal

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favorites

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and also most recently

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he's been featured in steven greer's

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film

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unacknowledged

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so many times i've wondered this why

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does this man's name keep coming up in

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so many stories about ufos

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about aliens about alien crash landings

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about government cover-ups about

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conspiracies

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i have to admit that i've often thought

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if i could just get to talk to him i

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but the truth my friends

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especially when it comes to ufos and

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aliens and what the government really

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knows about this

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can be incredibly elusive

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thing has been called a hall of mirrors

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with a floor of quicksand

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and i think with good reason

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because it seems like the deeper you dig

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the more mysteries you find

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are extraterrestrial spacecraft really

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visiting earth and have been for some

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time

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and does the government know about it

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and have been covering it up

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have there been multiple

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extraterrestrial spacecraft that have

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somehow crash landed on earth

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that our government collected and

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covered up

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don't you want to know the truth

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i want to know the truth

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and for years as i read books that

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mentioned my guest tonight richard doty

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as i watched documentaries and films

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that featured him

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telling his version of the truth

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i reasoned

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that if i could just get this man alone

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[Music]

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i was sure somehow

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that i might be able to actually get to

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the truth of these important questions

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after all

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this man has been mentioned in so many

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stories about ufos aliens and

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extraterrestrial spacecraft

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and he also

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worked for

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the air force office of special

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investigation

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unlike many people in the ufo field his

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background can be verified

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anybody can check and find out he's

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telling the truth about

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where he worked and some of the things

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that he did

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my entire life i've been convinced that

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richard doty just might be the key

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to getting some form of disclosure some

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truth

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about ufos extraterrestrial spacecraft

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and what the government really does know

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about it

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tonight my fellow true seekers i'm so

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excited that i'm finally going to get my

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wish

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and to be able to get this man alone

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and find out what this well-connected

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former government insider really knows

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about ufos aliens extraterrestrial

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spacecraft and what the government knows

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about

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let's

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find out

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my guest tonight richard doty has been

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standing by on our mystery phone so

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without further ado

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so i don't i don't know where to begin

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but i think that the best question that

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i could ask you that i think i know the

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and that is are there things that are

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related to ufos and ets that you have

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never yet disclosed

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and if so

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when will you because tonight may be a

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uh there are a lot of things that i've

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a lot of

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operations that i

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completed during my career

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with osi that that remain classified

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that i haven't uh

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disclosed anybody

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well you're still under some kind of nda

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or like secrecy agreement right so you

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can talk about some things isn't that

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right

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well uh

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technically no because it was only for

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25 years

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but um

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i was

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and so some of that

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uh there was a somewhat of a gray area

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sorry i but there are some things that

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because of the nature of it i i'm not

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gonna i'm not gonna talk about it uh i'm

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not gonna talk about the uh

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what what happened what we did as i tell

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some people

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um

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be careful what you ask for because if

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you

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if i if i disclose things that uh

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that i had been privy to

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that are

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extremely sensitive

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or

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uh

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might you might that might affect you

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psychologically so

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i'm careful what i what i say

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regarding some really really deep dark

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secrets well that sounds like pretty

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powerful stuff that you must have so i

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guess the next question and this is

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really important to me because of just

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learning about your background and i'm

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really incredibly amazed by some of your

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history and your family's history and

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your background so i would ask you about

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grant cameron's book managing magic

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because in that book he writes that your

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uncle edward doty was an intelligence

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officer who was ahead of ufo

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investigations at holloman in the 50s

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a liaison officer with

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air force office of special intelligence

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for ufo investigations and also that

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your father charles doty was involved in

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ufo-related matters and new colonel lane

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edwards who's the air force figure

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behind bob

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emeniger's air force support ufo

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documentary and that's amazing to me

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when i when i i was already enamored and

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amazed with your career but when i heard

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about that

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you know so it's implied that both your

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father and your uncle were likely right

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into the government's secret program on

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ufos that in fact your family has been

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heavily involved in this thing for many

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years so can you confirm or deny these

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no they're they're uh they're correct my

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uncle edward was involved with

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the investigations of ufos

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uh at holloman and at the and two other

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bases

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he was involved with project blue book

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he was one of the chief investigators in

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new mexico actually that's just not just

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new mexico but in the southwest

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of ufo sightings he was

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my uncle wrote the report the classified

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report regarding the

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uh lonnie zamora incident near socorro

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new mexico in 1964.

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well i've heard of that he investigated

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he investigated that that case

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so and he had been involved from

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the late 40s up until he retired in 60

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or 70 i believe you've retired in 72 or

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70 70 or 72 and i don't recall exactly

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but anyways he was involved

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in that or in

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some peripheral

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investigations regarding or offshoots

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from the project blue book era

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and

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my dad was

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well he was an intelligence officer

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other than other than korea

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where he flew and uh

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uh he was was an intelligence officer

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during his entire career

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and he was

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exposed to a number of cases involved

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involving ufos

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and can i just ask have you your father

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and your uncle ever sat together and

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talked about these things and what is

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what are those conversations like

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because it sounds to me like you and

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your whole family know more about this

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yes we did we we've sat down a couple

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times

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only once together

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and i was at a reunion where we sat down

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and talked about

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in great details about what each of them

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did

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and that was a number of years ago

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but i've sat down privately with with

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both my uncle my dad to discuss um

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some particular cases and and and then

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the subject in general

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that's amazing now i want to get this

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out of the way because

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anybody that that would hear that i'm

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going to talk to you

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want to want me to talk about the

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elephant in the room and that is the

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paul bennowitz case

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and and so

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i would say that you've been largely

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vilified in that case and yet you claim

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you're just doing your job and i believe

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that you were

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but do you think any of the decisions

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made by the government

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the air force of special intelligence

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who was your employer were wrong

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decisions

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that you had to carry out but in

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retrospect you know maybe you disagree

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in other words you were following orders

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and i agree that you know i i have

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family in the military when you're when

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you're ordered to do something you just

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do it you don't question it

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but

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hindsight is always 20 20. how do you

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feel about the decisions that they made

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and the orders that they gave you to do

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those things with him

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now that so much time has passed

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well uh

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taijai is always 2020 so i if if i had

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to do it over again i would have

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requested some

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some

290
00:12:09,350 --> 00:12:07,200
changes in the assignment

291
00:12:12,470 --> 00:12:09,360
and some um

292
00:12:15,190 --> 00:12:12,480
a different strategy towards what our

293
00:12:17,430 --> 00:12:15,200
our goal was

294
00:12:19,509 --> 00:12:17,440
and and how we how we wanted to go about

295
00:12:23,190 --> 00:12:19,519
that but um

296
00:12:24,870 --> 00:12:23,200
i i it wasn't as complex as some people

297
00:12:27,269 --> 00:12:24,880
read into it

298
00:12:29,110 --> 00:12:27,279
paul was a believer in your opposed and

299
00:12:30,790 --> 00:12:29,120
paul was a believer in

300
00:12:31,670 --> 00:12:30,800
and what he was doing

301
00:12:34,150 --> 00:12:31,680
and

302
00:12:35,509 --> 00:12:34,160
he was thoroughly convinced without any

303
00:12:37,990 --> 00:12:35,519
of our

304
00:12:39,030 --> 00:12:38,000
urging he was thoroughly thoroughly

305
00:12:40,710 --> 00:12:39,040
convinced

306
00:12:41,910 --> 00:12:40,720
that what he

307
00:12:43,990 --> 00:12:41,920
obtained

308
00:12:46,790 --> 00:12:44,000
and the pictures that he took were of

309
00:12:50,150 --> 00:12:46,800
ufos or aets

310
00:12:53,350 --> 00:12:50,160
so all we had to do all i had to do was

311
00:12:55,430 --> 00:12:53,360
kind of urge him along uh to believing

312
00:12:57,829 --> 00:12:55,440
that because what but

313
00:12:58,949 --> 00:12:57,839
what a few people know

314
00:13:02,629 --> 00:12:58,959
is that

315
00:13:05,030 --> 00:13:02,639
paul had stumbled onto a classified

316
00:13:06,790 --> 00:13:05,040
project on kirtland

317
00:13:09,030 --> 00:13:06,800
and when

318
00:13:11,829 --> 00:13:09,040
paul first came to us

319
00:13:14,230 --> 00:13:11,839
and told us he was uh he came to us as a

320
00:13:16,230 --> 00:13:14,240
concerned citizen as a veteran he he was

321
00:13:19,430 --> 00:13:16,240
in that he was in the navy

322
00:13:21,190 --> 00:13:19,440
uh and he was concerned about what

323
00:13:23,750 --> 00:13:21,200
uh what he was

324
00:13:26,470 --> 00:13:23,760
obtaining what he was collecting

325
00:13:28,389 --> 00:13:26,480
through electronic means and and the

326
00:13:30,230 --> 00:13:28,399
photographs he had taken he was

327
00:13:31,990 --> 00:13:30,240
concerned that there was might be some

328
00:13:34,230 --> 00:13:32,000
threat against

329
00:13:36,230 --> 00:13:34,240
the kirtland air force base and so

330
00:13:39,110 --> 00:13:36,240
that's why he came to us

331
00:13:40,790 --> 00:13:39,120
and when we started investigating this

332
00:13:42,949 --> 00:13:40,800
we found out that

333
00:13:46,389 --> 00:13:42,959
what what paul actually

334
00:13:48,710 --> 00:13:46,399
did was he tapped into a classified

335
00:13:49,670 --> 00:13:48,720
national security agency

336
00:13:51,030 --> 00:13:49,680
uh

337
00:13:53,829 --> 00:13:51,040
a system

338
00:13:57,110 --> 00:13:53,839
that was located on the base

339
00:13:59,990 --> 00:13:59,030
exactly and so

340
00:14:01,509 --> 00:14:00,000
uh

341
00:14:04,710 --> 00:14:01,519
we didn't want him

342
00:14:06,710 --> 00:14:04,720
to think that he was uh

343
00:14:09,430 --> 00:14:06,720
that he had done that so we

344
00:14:11,829 --> 00:14:09,440
and he was convinced that what he tapped

345
00:14:14,470 --> 00:14:11,839
into was an et signal

346
00:14:17,829 --> 00:14:14,480
so we just can we just continue to

347
00:14:21,350 --> 00:14:17,839
to uh urge him to think that it was a et

348
00:14:23,829 --> 00:14:21,360
signal and not the actual nsa signal

349
00:14:26,230 --> 00:14:23,839
now what's interesting

350
00:14:28,310 --> 00:14:26,240
is is that some of the pictures that he

351
00:14:29,269 --> 00:14:28,320
took

352
00:14:32,870 --> 00:14:29,279
uh

353
00:14:34,550 --> 00:14:32,880
of objects around flying around kirtland

354
00:14:36,790 --> 00:14:34,560
uh

355
00:14:38,710 --> 00:14:36,800
some of them could be explained but some

356
00:14:40,949 --> 00:14:38,720
of them couldn't be

357
00:14:43,430 --> 00:14:40,959
and back in the um

358
00:14:45,030 --> 00:14:43,440
in the 80s early 80s

359
00:14:47,990 --> 00:14:45,040
the air force was

360
00:14:50,389 --> 00:14:48,000
experimenting with drones

361
00:14:52,870 --> 00:14:50,399
highly classified at the time

362
00:14:53,990 --> 00:14:52,880
and they were flying drones

363
00:14:55,990 --> 00:14:54,000
different

364
00:14:58,310 --> 00:14:56,000
types of drones

365
00:14:59,670 --> 00:14:58,320
and i don't know exactly the types but

366
00:15:01,030 --> 00:14:59,680
anyway there were different types of

367
00:15:03,030 --> 00:15:01,040
drones

368
00:15:04,550 --> 00:15:03,040
and some of the pictures that he took

369
00:15:07,350 --> 00:15:04,560
were of drones

370
00:15:09,269 --> 00:15:07,360
and and that's classified so

371
00:15:10,790 --> 00:15:09,279
we never told him

372
00:15:12,710 --> 00:15:10,800
you know their drones

373
00:15:16,629 --> 00:15:12,720
uh but we told them wow we don't know

374
00:15:18,230 --> 00:15:16,639
what they are they need to hear ufos

375
00:15:19,910 --> 00:15:18,240
this leads me to another important

376
00:15:21,110 --> 00:15:19,920
question about the whole paul benowitz

377
00:15:23,110 --> 00:15:21,120
affair

378
00:15:25,189 --> 00:15:23,120
and that's this in reading everything

379
00:15:27,670 --> 00:15:25,199
about it i always thought here's a guy

380
00:15:29,509 --> 00:15:27,680
who has government contracts with the

381
00:15:31,430 --> 00:15:29,519
air force or the government you know

382
00:15:33,350 --> 00:15:31,440
with through his company

383
00:15:35,189 --> 00:15:33,360
probably a somewhat patriotic guy like

384
00:15:37,749 --> 00:15:35,199
you said he was a concerned citizen came

385
00:15:40,389 --> 00:15:37,759
for forward to say hey look i'm seeing

386
00:15:41,990 --> 00:15:40,399
this this stuff in restricted airspace i

387
00:15:45,030 --> 00:15:42,000
took these pictures

388
00:15:47,430 --> 00:15:45,040
why the incredibly elaborate ruse and

389
00:15:50,550 --> 00:15:47,440
bringing in ufos and extraterrestrials

390
00:15:52,870 --> 00:15:50,560
and dulce bass and all of this stuff why

391
00:15:54,710 --> 00:15:52,880
didn't the air force just take him into

392
00:15:57,269 --> 00:15:54,720
confidence tell the truth and swear in

393
00:15:59,910 --> 00:15:57,279
the secrecy about what was really going

394
00:16:03,670 --> 00:16:01,590
well uh

395
00:16:06,150 --> 00:16:03,680
that was one of that would be one of the

396
00:16:07,430 --> 00:16:06,160
things i would probably have changed

397
00:16:11,030 --> 00:16:07,440
and i probably would have tried to

398
00:16:12,389 --> 00:16:11,040
convince my supervisors to do that but

399
00:16:15,590 --> 00:16:12,399
uh they

400
00:16:17,990 --> 00:16:15,600
when we found out that his company had

401
00:16:20,069 --> 00:16:18,000
the industrial security clearance and

402
00:16:22,629 --> 00:16:20,079
that he was making he was he had it had

403
00:16:25,189 --> 00:16:22,639
a secret clearance his company did he

404
00:16:27,269 --> 00:16:25,199
did his employees did

405
00:16:28,310 --> 00:16:27,279
was thunder scientific because he made

406
00:16:29,749 --> 00:16:28,320
parts for

407
00:16:33,910 --> 00:16:29,759
submarines

408
00:16:37,269 --> 00:16:33,920
we i

409
00:16:41,110 --> 00:16:37,279
proposed that to my supervisor

410
00:16:45,749 --> 00:16:43,749
other supervisors from washington

411
00:16:47,350 --> 00:16:45,759
sat down at the table to discuss the

412
00:16:50,069 --> 00:16:47,360
strategy on this

413
00:16:51,990 --> 00:16:50,079
he vernonly said no we're not going to

414
00:16:53,269 --> 00:16:52,000
brief him into it this is too highly

415
00:16:55,590 --> 00:16:53,279
classified

416
00:16:57,269 --> 00:16:55,600
and he doesn't have a need to know that

417
00:16:59,829 --> 00:16:57,279
and again one of my other one of my

418
00:17:01,509 --> 00:16:59,839
other questions was going to be and i i

419
00:17:02,629 --> 00:17:01,519
i really didn't think anybody ever asked

420
00:17:05,189 --> 00:17:02,639
you this that if it wasn't

421
00:17:07,590 --> 00:17:05,199
extraterrestrial spacecraft

422
00:17:08,789 --> 00:17:07,600
what was paul bennowitz seeing did you

423
00:17:10,390 --> 00:17:08,799
was it just the drones that the

424
00:17:13,510 --> 00:17:10,400
government wanted so desperately to

425
00:17:16,870 --> 00:17:15,029
some of them

426
00:17:19,189 --> 00:17:16,880
were drones they were

427
00:17:21,750 --> 00:17:19,199
clearly some of the photographs that he

428
00:17:25,029 --> 00:17:21,760
took were of drones they were recognized

429
00:17:27,350 --> 00:17:25,039
and identified as drones by

430
00:17:29,909 --> 00:17:27,360
other intelligence people but some of

431
00:17:32,789 --> 00:17:29,919
the some of the objects that he took

432
00:17:36,549 --> 00:17:32,799
photos of were not doing this

433
00:17:38,789 --> 00:17:36,559
in fact he took a series of photographs

434
00:17:41,510 --> 00:17:38,799
on a particular

435
00:17:44,390 --> 00:17:41,520
rainy night and there wasn't any drones

436
00:17:45,990 --> 00:17:44,400
flying during that time period

437
00:17:47,990 --> 00:17:46,000
and uh

438
00:17:49,190 --> 00:17:48,000
these these objects were

439
00:17:52,470 --> 00:17:49,200
large

440
00:17:54,150 --> 00:17:52,480
they were uh foster shaped

441
00:17:55,830 --> 00:17:54,160
and they were rather

442
00:17:57,110 --> 00:17:55,840
close to the base treatment of the

443
00:17:58,070 --> 00:17:57,120
curtain

444
00:17:58,950 --> 00:17:58,080
and

445
00:18:01,270 --> 00:17:58,960
when

446
00:18:03,590 --> 00:18:01,280
we set up the headquarters to be

447
00:18:05,830 --> 00:18:03,600
evaluated or identified

448
00:18:07,430 --> 00:18:05,840
uh they came back that these objects

449
00:18:09,830 --> 00:18:07,440
were not drones and they were not

450
00:18:12,390 --> 00:18:09,840
anything identifiable to the air force

451
00:18:14,710 --> 00:18:12,400
or any other military agency

452
00:18:16,390 --> 00:18:14,720
so we don't know what they were

453
00:18:17,270 --> 00:18:16,400
wow

454
00:18:19,750 --> 00:18:17,280
so

455
00:18:22,470 --> 00:18:19,760
you you you mentioned that your uncle

456
00:18:24,549 --> 00:18:22,480
was you know uh had some relation to

457
00:18:26,150 --> 00:18:24,559
holliman air force base

458
00:18:28,310 --> 00:18:26,160
did you guys ever talk about the

459
00:18:30,470 --> 00:18:28,320
holloman landings that are so famous in

460
00:18:32,710 --> 00:18:30,480
ufo mythology or do you know anything

461
00:18:34,310 --> 00:18:32,720
about that was is that a real story or

462
00:18:38,549 --> 00:18:34,320
is that a hoax or

463
00:18:43,750 --> 00:18:41,350
no it was real it was a real a real live

464
00:18:44,470 --> 00:18:43,760
incident uh bed

465
00:18:47,190 --> 00:18:44,480
well

466
00:18:50,150 --> 00:18:47,200
let me let me go back a little bit

467
00:18:53,350 --> 00:18:50,160
the lonnie zamora case where a craft

468
00:18:55,669 --> 00:18:53,360
landed near the coral

469
00:18:58,230 --> 00:18:55,679
was the same craft that was supposed to

470
00:18:59,190 --> 00:18:58,240
have landed down near parliament

471
00:19:00,950 --> 00:18:59,200
but

472
00:19:06,230 --> 00:19:00,960
there were

473
00:19:07,990 --> 00:19:06,240
that the craft the xp's got got the

474
00:19:09,909 --> 00:19:08,000
landing site long

475
00:19:11,190 --> 00:19:09,919
and that's another entire that would

476
00:19:13,510 --> 00:19:11,200
take another

477
00:19:16,710 --> 00:19:13,520
hours to discuss but

478
00:19:19,990 --> 00:19:16,720
anyway they landed at the wrong location

479
00:19:21,909 --> 00:19:20,000
and when uh they i guess figured it out

480
00:19:25,270 --> 00:19:21,919
on their own or

481
00:19:26,789 --> 00:19:25,280
what the however they they decided it

482
00:19:28,630 --> 00:19:26,799
was the wrong location

483
00:19:31,190 --> 00:19:28,640
they took off and landed at the right

484
00:19:33,510 --> 00:19:31,200
location if you if you look at the dates

485
00:19:35,270 --> 00:19:33,520
the dates are exactly the same

486
00:19:38,549 --> 00:19:35,280
that from the holloman case in the

487
00:19:40,310 --> 00:19:38,559
london samoa case april april 24th

488
00:19:42,390 --> 00:19:40,320
it never happened you've never connected

489
00:19:44,310 --> 00:19:42,400
those two that's amazing

490
00:19:46,310 --> 00:19:44,320
well that's some great information

491
00:19:47,510 --> 00:19:46,320
that's what that's what the that's what

492
00:19:49,669 --> 00:19:47,520
the uh

493
00:19:52,230 --> 00:19:49,679
uh that's what happened and the the date

494
00:19:55,270 --> 00:19:52,240
my michael spoke of it

495
00:19:57,029 --> 00:19:55,280
in detail to me years later

496
00:20:00,310 --> 00:19:57,039
and

497
00:20:04,230 --> 00:20:02,870
convinced that

498
00:20:06,630 --> 00:20:04,240
what they were

499
00:20:09,350 --> 00:20:06,640
they were coming back for were the

500
00:20:10,390 --> 00:20:09,360
the bodies of the

501
00:20:13,270 --> 00:20:10,400
of the

502
00:20:15,510 --> 00:20:13,280
et from the roswell crash site or corona

503
00:20:17,750 --> 00:20:15,520
crash site everybody calls it roswell

504
00:20:19,669 --> 00:20:17,760
but actually happened near cronin mexico

505
00:20:21,430 --> 00:20:19,679
yeah like in stan friedman's crashing

506
00:20:23,510 --> 00:20:21,440
corona

507
00:20:24,549 --> 00:20:23,520
and i i guess yeah i guess i would ask

508
00:20:27,270 --> 00:20:24,559
you that

509
00:20:29,750 --> 00:20:27,280
in relation to the holloman

510
00:20:31,029 --> 00:20:29,760
landing footage so many times the air

511
00:20:33,590 --> 00:20:31,039
force like the air force went to

512
00:20:35,510 --> 00:20:33,600
emanager with promises of providing that

513
00:20:36,950 --> 00:20:35,520
holloman landing footage

514
00:20:38,789 --> 00:20:36,960
and and a lot of people think that was

515
00:20:41,190 --> 00:20:38,799
part of an ongoing disclosure effort

516
00:20:43,830 --> 00:20:41,200
that by necessity you know they have to

517
00:20:45,190 --> 00:20:43,840
conceal classified information

518
00:20:46,710 --> 00:20:45,200
traditional leaking wouldn't work

519
00:20:48,549 --> 00:20:46,720
because of the secrecy agreements and

520
00:20:50,710 --> 00:20:48,559
the nda's you know people like you if

521
00:20:53,590 --> 00:20:50,720
they leaked this stuff would go to jail

522
00:20:55,350 --> 00:20:53,600
so are they is the government on purpose

523
00:20:57,350 --> 00:20:55,360
releasing real information via

524
00:20:59,590 --> 00:20:57,360
disinformation and via proxies and

525
00:21:03,110 --> 00:20:59,600
cutouts and some kind of effort at

526
00:21:08,630 --> 00:21:05,510
well i know at one time

527
00:21:10,549 --> 00:21:08,640
uh back in the uh 80s uh when i'm back

528
00:21:11,990 --> 00:21:10,559
in the late 70s when i was brief into

529
00:21:14,470 --> 00:21:12,000
the program

530
00:21:19,669 --> 00:21:14,480
one of the uh

531
00:21:23,510 --> 00:21:21,350
that i was given

532
00:21:25,590 --> 00:21:23,520
pertain to a disclosure that has started

533
00:21:28,070 --> 00:21:25,600
back in the early 50s

534
00:21:30,870 --> 00:21:28,080
it was more or less the test

535
00:21:33,350 --> 00:21:30,880
test of how people would react to

536
00:21:35,430 --> 00:21:33,360
the the information that we were in

537
00:21:37,750 --> 00:21:35,440
contact with extraterrestrials and they

538
00:21:40,870 --> 00:21:37,760
were there were the air force cooperated

539
00:21:41,669 --> 00:21:40,880
with movie producers and

540
00:21:44,549 --> 00:21:41,679
uh

541
00:21:46,070 --> 00:21:44,559
and and some some authors

542
00:21:49,270 --> 00:21:46,080
uh back then

543
00:21:50,470 --> 00:21:49,280
uh but for some reason along the way

544
00:21:53,909 --> 00:21:50,480
uh things

545
00:21:55,669 --> 00:21:53,919
clammed up in the the the the military

546
00:21:58,310 --> 00:21:55,679
uh

547
00:22:00,070 --> 00:21:58,320
stopped stopped cooperating now what

548
00:22:01,990 --> 00:22:00,080
they're doing today i don't know and

549
00:22:03,669 --> 00:22:02,000
maybe maybe there is i think

550
00:22:05,990 --> 00:22:03,679
i think uh

551
00:22:07,909 --> 00:22:06,000
my own personal opinion is that

552
00:22:09,029 --> 00:22:07,919
there is a disclosure

553
00:22:10,149 --> 00:22:09,039
uh

554
00:22:13,909 --> 00:22:10,159
process

555
00:22:16,870 --> 00:22:13,919
that is that started uh sometime back in

556
00:22:18,870 --> 00:22:16,880
the early 2000s and better that's

557
00:22:20,310 --> 00:22:18,880
continuing

558
00:22:22,470 --> 00:22:20,320
but the problem

559
00:22:24,470 --> 00:22:22,480
is that there's so much

560
00:22:25,350 --> 00:22:24,480
junk that's been

561
00:22:33,510 --> 00:22:25,360
uh

562
00:22:35,190 --> 00:22:33,520
fake

563
00:22:38,149 --> 00:22:35,200
ufo books or

564
00:22:40,630 --> 00:22:38,159
or of movies that portray things that

565
00:22:42,789 --> 00:22:40,640
aren't really accurate that it's really

566
00:22:44,549 --> 00:22:42,799
difficult for the government to come out

567
00:22:46,230 --> 00:22:44,559
and say well this is this is what

568
00:22:48,549 --> 00:22:46,240
happened here and this is what happened

569
00:22:50,230 --> 00:22:48,559
there because people are saying well

570
00:22:51,830 --> 00:22:50,240
they've already been brainwashed well i

571
00:22:52,789 --> 00:22:51,840
just read a book that says it happened

572
00:22:54,710 --> 00:22:52,799
this way

573
00:22:55,750 --> 00:22:54,720
i just saw a movie uh i just saw a

574
00:22:57,830 --> 00:22:55,760
special

575
00:23:00,149 --> 00:22:57,840
so there's so much junk that has been

576
00:23:02,870 --> 00:23:00,159
spread out there that it's

577
00:23:05,270 --> 00:23:02,880
it's it's difficult to to

578
00:23:07,029 --> 00:23:05,280
to hold a news conference and say

579
00:23:10,789 --> 00:23:07,039
forget everything you've learned or

580
00:23:11,909 --> 00:23:10,799
heard uh or saw or read this is the

581
00:23:13,029 --> 00:23:11,919
facts

582
00:23:14,870 --> 00:23:13,039
you know

583
00:23:18,549 --> 00:23:14,880
i guess i would i would also like to ask

584
00:23:20,630 --> 00:23:18,559
you on on this subject of disclosure

585
00:23:24,789 --> 00:23:20,640
that there's been some recent

586
00:23:26,950 --> 00:23:24,799
big news uh really uh through this to

587
00:23:28,710 --> 00:23:26,960
the stars academy and

588
00:23:30,789 --> 00:23:28,720
they're releasing gun camera footage

589
00:23:33,350 --> 00:23:30,799
something that they've never done but it

590
00:23:35,430 --> 00:23:33,360
seems to be a half effort like

591
00:23:37,029 --> 00:23:35,440
they say it's from the pentagon or

592
00:23:38,789 --> 00:23:37,039
department of defense and then people

593
00:23:41,190 --> 00:23:38,799
file for your request and they say we

594
00:23:42,710 --> 00:23:41,200
didn't release any of this stuff

595
00:23:44,710 --> 00:23:42,720
what do you think of the two stars

596
00:23:46,870 --> 00:23:44,720
academy and is this a real effort of

597
00:23:47,990 --> 00:23:46,880
disclosure is this a disinformation

598
00:23:48,870 --> 00:23:48,000
campaign

599
00:23:53,590 --> 00:23:48,880
or

600
00:23:55,830 --> 00:23:53,600
disclosure and this is just a trickling

601
00:23:58,390 --> 00:23:55,840
slow disclosure or confirmation as

602
00:24:02,470 --> 00:23:58,400
robert bigelow claimed a few years ago

603
00:24:08,630 --> 00:24:05,830
no i think there's a active effort

604
00:24:11,510 --> 00:24:08,640
but uh i'm no longer involved in the in

605
00:24:12,390 --> 00:24:11,520
the uh government so i i don't know what

606
00:24:17,029 --> 00:24:12,400
they're

607
00:24:20,789 --> 00:24:17,039
recent disclosure

608
00:24:22,630 --> 00:24:20,799
but i i i i'm pretty positive that

609
00:24:24,230 --> 00:24:22,640
there's there's going to be eventual

610
00:24:25,750 --> 00:24:24,240
disclosure and i don't know how they're

611
00:24:26,549 --> 00:24:25,760
going to do it how they're going to work

612
00:24:28,870 --> 00:24:26,559
it

613
00:24:30,710 --> 00:24:28,880
because of all the brainwashing that has

614
00:24:33,110 --> 00:24:30,720
been done over the years

615
00:24:36,870 --> 00:24:33,120
from from

616
00:24:39,350 --> 00:24:36,880
people who write fictitious ufo books

617
00:24:41,269 --> 00:24:39,360
i spend most of my time going through

618
00:24:44,149 --> 00:24:41,279
garbage trying to get to some real

619
00:24:46,230 --> 00:24:44,159
information so i agree with you on that

620
00:24:48,789 --> 00:24:46,240
and another question i wanted to ask you

621
00:24:50,630 --> 00:24:48,799
about is just another famous story about

622
00:24:53,269 --> 00:24:50,640
nixon taking jack and gleason to see

623
00:24:54,630 --> 00:24:53,279
alien bodies in an air force base

624
00:24:58,870 --> 00:24:54,640
do you know anything about that or if

625
00:25:03,990 --> 00:25:02,630
well i i asked uh my uncle he he heard

626
00:25:06,310 --> 00:25:04,000
the story

627
00:25:08,070 --> 00:25:06,320
he knew nixon was

628
00:25:12,310 --> 00:25:08,080
intimately involved

629
00:25:14,070 --> 00:25:12,320
he he uh nixon was had been briefed

630
00:25:17,590 --> 00:25:14,080
nixon wanted to be briefed on every

631
00:25:20,070 --> 00:25:17,600
single ufo sighting or every every

632
00:25:21,350 --> 00:25:20,080
legitimate ufo case

633
00:25:23,510 --> 00:25:21,360
uh

634
00:25:25,669 --> 00:25:23,520
he um

635
00:25:27,029 --> 00:25:25,679
but that the incident involving jack at

636
00:25:28,870 --> 00:25:27,039
least as

637
00:25:30,230 --> 00:25:28,880
as far as i know

638
00:25:32,710 --> 00:25:30,240
really happened

639
00:25:35,190 --> 00:25:32,720
uh but of course that's i'm only getting

640
00:25:37,909 --> 00:25:35,200
it from a second a second party or third

641
00:25:40,149 --> 00:25:37,919
party i know obviously i wasn't around

642
00:25:41,669 --> 00:25:40,159
back in that those days so i don't

643
00:25:44,549 --> 00:25:41,679
really know what

644
00:25:47,430 --> 00:25:44,559
what uh whether it's factual or not but

645
00:25:49,909 --> 00:25:47,440
i heard it the story came from his widow

646
00:25:52,070 --> 00:25:49,919
who i didn't i just don't think she had

647
00:25:54,149 --> 00:25:52,080
any reason she wasn't looking for money

648
00:25:57,430 --> 00:25:54,159
or fame she didn't write a book

649
00:25:59,510 --> 00:25:57,440
or won a movie deal like people do today

650
00:26:01,430 --> 00:25:59,520
she just told a lot of people this story

651
00:26:03,110 --> 00:26:01,440
and that's how it got out so i always

652
00:26:05,190 --> 00:26:03,120
thought that's got to be a real story

653
00:26:07,510 --> 00:26:05,200
because why would his widow just make up

654
00:26:09,190 --> 00:26:07,520
this story and a big thing of the story

655
00:26:10,870 --> 00:26:09,200
is that gleeson was so upset that he

656
00:26:13,590 --> 00:26:10,880
couldn't eat for days after that you

657
00:26:15,269 --> 00:26:13,600
know he liked to eat so

658
00:26:17,750 --> 00:26:15,279
i mean it's just a little caveat of the

659
00:26:20,710 --> 00:26:17,760
story but it's funny you know

660
00:26:23,029 --> 00:26:20,720
this amazing story well

661
00:26:25,029 --> 00:26:23,039
jackie one of the things that

662
00:26:28,390 --> 00:26:25,039
i i read some years

663
00:26:31,830 --> 00:26:28,400
later that is that jackie gleason

664
00:26:35,190 --> 00:26:31,840
privately told johnny carson about it

665
00:26:36,390 --> 00:26:35,200
and and john and but sworn to secrecy

666
00:26:38,870 --> 00:26:36,400
and

667
00:26:42,950 --> 00:26:38,880
after jackie had died

668
00:26:44,549 --> 00:26:42,960
johnny disclosed that to a a a retired

669
00:26:46,710 --> 00:26:44,559
air force colonel

670
00:26:47,510 --> 00:26:46,720
who he had on his show

671
00:26:49,510 --> 00:26:47,520
uh

672
00:26:51,590 --> 00:26:49,520
and i'm not sure how how this colonel

673
00:26:54,230 --> 00:26:51,600
got on the show but anyways

674
00:26:56,789 --> 00:26:54,240
johnny asked the colonel about it

675
00:26:58,310 --> 00:26:56,799
uh and the colonel said yes it did

676
00:27:01,190 --> 00:26:58,320
really happen but

677
00:27:03,190 --> 00:27:01,200
uh but not on not on the air it was you

678
00:27:05,669 --> 00:27:03,200
know behind the scenes

679
00:27:08,070 --> 00:27:05,679
and i heard that story too and uh i've

680
00:27:10,789 --> 00:27:08,080
heard from at least four people now five

681
00:27:12,950 --> 00:27:10,799
including you that that are in position

682
00:27:14,870 --> 00:27:12,960
to probably know that this story is real

683
00:27:17,269 --> 00:27:14,880
so that's amazing to get some kind of

684
00:27:21,590 --> 00:27:17,279
confirmation of such an incredible story

685
00:27:24,789 --> 00:27:21,600
taking place years and years ago

686
00:27:26,630 --> 00:27:24,799
yes yes yeah so you did mention that

687
00:27:30,710 --> 00:27:26,640
you're no longer active

688
00:27:32,470 --> 00:27:30,720
or operational and again you know i i

689
00:27:35,430 --> 00:27:32,480
have always objected to people kind of

690
00:27:37,350 --> 00:27:35,440
vilifying you and making you a bad guy

691
00:27:38,710 --> 00:27:37,360
in this whole field because i think

692
00:27:41,110 --> 00:27:38,720
you're one of the most knowledgeable

693
00:27:43,430 --> 00:27:41,120
people that are on planet earth about

694
00:27:45,909 --> 00:27:43,440
these things but some people

695
00:27:47,669 --> 00:27:45,919
say that you're still operational

696
00:27:49,430 --> 00:27:47,679
and so i wanted to ask you direct and

697
00:27:51,510 --> 00:27:49,440
straight out are you still engaged in

698
00:27:53,590 --> 00:27:51,520
any operational intelligence gathering

699
00:27:55,350 --> 00:27:53,600
or disinformation related activities

700
00:27:58,470 --> 00:27:55,360
official or unofficial

701
00:28:01,669 --> 00:27:58,480
relating to the subject of ufos

702
00:28:03,590 --> 00:28:01,679
no i'm not i'm a member of the

703
00:28:05,110 --> 00:28:03,600
of the retired intelligence officers

704
00:28:07,029 --> 00:28:05,120
association

705
00:28:09,590 --> 00:28:07,039
we meet uh

706
00:28:12,549 --> 00:28:09,600
once a year sometimes twice a year or at

707
00:28:15,029 --> 00:28:12,559
somebody's funeral that lately it's been

708
00:28:19,110 --> 00:28:15,039
somebody's funeral and we have a little

709
00:28:21,590 --> 00:28:19,120
group uh of uh intelligence officers who

710
00:28:23,990 --> 00:28:21,600
had had access to this

711
00:28:26,789 --> 00:28:24,000
information who had been involved in

712
00:28:28,230 --> 00:28:26,799
investigating of it and we meet and we

713
00:28:31,029 --> 00:28:28,240
sit and talk

714
00:28:33,430 --> 00:28:31,039
uh and and we discuss uh

715
00:28:35,750 --> 00:28:33,440
um

716
00:28:38,070 --> 00:28:35,760
investigations that each each of us had

717
00:28:40,470 --> 00:28:38,080
done some of the guys had

718
00:28:41,350 --> 00:28:40,480
older than me and had done things back

719
00:28:43,510 --> 00:28:41,360
in the

720
00:28:44,470 --> 00:28:43,520
50s and 60s that

721
00:28:48,070 --> 00:28:44,480
were

722
00:28:51,430 --> 00:28:48,080
are quite extraordinary and that

723
00:28:55,190 --> 00:28:51,440
we have only uh a couple

724
00:28:56,549 --> 00:28:55,200
that are recently retired that uh will

725
00:28:58,149 --> 00:28:56,559
or can

726
00:28:59,750 --> 00:28:58,159
talk to us because because we still we

727
00:29:00,870 --> 00:28:59,760
don't have any clearances anymore they

728
00:29:03,110 --> 00:29:00,880
still do

729
00:29:05,590 --> 00:29:03,120
and so they have to keep things

730
00:29:08,710 --> 00:29:05,600
uh sensitive so

731
00:29:10,630 --> 00:29:08,720
they do relate things uh

732
00:29:12,710 --> 00:29:10,640
not in details

733
00:29:14,789 --> 00:29:12,720
but more or less a summary of some of

734
00:29:17,350 --> 00:29:14,799
the things that they've done in the uh

735
00:29:18,710 --> 00:29:17,360
in the in the 90s and in the hundreds

736
00:29:21,909 --> 00:29:18,720
and 2000s

737
00:29:23,750 --> 00:29:21,919
and that are still showing that the

738
00:29:25,669 --> 00:29:23,760
government is still mistaking

739
00:29:27,909 --> 00:29:25,679
the incidents well we've just had

740
00:29:30,070 --> 00:29:27,919
confirmation that the pentagon is

741
00:29:32,470 --> 00:29:30,080
and i i guess another another question

742
00:29:33,909 --> 00:29:32,480
that's very important to get to

743
00:29:36,470 --> 00:29:33,919
there's so much to get to with you

744
00:29:39,510 --> 00:29:36,480
because your name comes up with in all

745
00:29:41,830 --> 00:29:39,520
different big stories in ufo mythology

746
00:29:43,669 --> 00:29:41,840
and lore every book that i've read on

747
00:29:45,590 --> 00:29:43,679
ufos mentions you

748
00:29:47,590 --> 00:29:45,600
in some story or another

749
00:29:49,669 --> 00:29:47,600
so i wanted to get to the mj 12

750
00:29:51,510 --> 00:29:49,679
documents but before i do

751
00:29:54,389 --> 00:29:51,520
i had a

752
00:29:56,070 --> 00:29:54,399
a very direct question and that is did

753
00:29:57,750 --> 00:29:56,080
the air force

754
00:29:59,909 --> 00:29:57,760
office of special intelligence who you

755
00:30:01,990 --> 00:29:59,919
worked for or any government agency to

756
00:30:06,470 --> 00:30:02,000
your knowledge create and distribute

757
00:30:07,669 --> 00:30:06,480
false leap documents to ufo researchers

758
00:30:11,029 --> 00:30:07,679
no

759
00:30:13,430 --> 00:30:11,039
never did

760
00:30:14,710 --> 00:30:13,440
but what now what about what they told

761
00:30:19,510 --> 00:30:14,720
you

762
00:30:21,990 --> 00:30:19,520
i hate to even get to this but people

763
00:30:24,230 --> 00:30:22,000
would really like to to know more about

764
00:30:25,590 --> 00:30:24,240
the story with linda malton how you

765
00:30:27,350 --> 00:30:25,600
sitting her down and putting her in a

766
00:30:29,590 --> 00:30:27,360
briefing room and giving her a dossier

767
00:30:31,590 --> 00:30:29,600
of information that you showed to her

768
00:30:34,149 --> 00:30:31,600
and she claims those documents mentioned

769
00:30:36,870 --> 00:30:34,159
that et's manipulated early man's dna to

770
00:30:38,870 --> 00:30:36,880
create homo sapiens

771
00:30:41,029 --> 00:30:38,880
first to your knowledge is that

772
00:30:42,789 --> 00:30:41,039
statement that she keeps making and has

773
00:30:44,149 --> 00:30:42,799
made for years about that dossier she

774
00:30:46,310 --> 00:30:44,159
was soon

775
00:30:48,630 --> 00:30:46,320
is it true or false that that dossier

776
00:30:50,630 --> 00:30:48,640
mentioned that et's manipulated man's

777
00:30:55,510 --> 00:30:50,640
dna and created homo sapiens because

778
00:31:02,230 --> 00:30:59,509
well it wasn't a dossier i i did provide

779
00:31:04,630 --> 00:31:02,240
we had an operation

780
00:31:06,389 --> 00:31:04,640
to obtain information from linda howell

781
00:31:10,310 --> 00:31:06,399
because she

782
00:31:12,630 --> 00:31:10,320
uh she had a number of sources in

783
00:31:14,230 --> 00:31:12,640
washington dc that was providing her

784
00:31:15,430 --> 00:31:14,240
information

785
00:31:16,389 --> 00:31:15,440
and

786
00:31:26,870 --> 00:31:16,399
we

787
00:31:28,230 --> 00:31:26,880
figure out

788
00:31:30,389 --> 00:31:28,240
a plan

789
00:31:33,830 --> 00:31:30,399
to uh

790
00:31:36,630 --> 00:31:33,840
to bring her in in the inside

791
00:31:39,590 --> 00:31:36,640
in order for her to open up to us

792
00:31:41,669 --> 00:31:39,600
now uh first of all i wasn't the only

793
00:31:43,350 --> 00:31:41,679
one involved in this there was a couple

794
00:31:45,430 --> 00:31:43,360
other people but my name of course is

795
00:31:47,029 --> 00:31:45,440
always mentioned because she brought it

796
00:31:50,389 --> 00:31:47,039
up but

797
00:31:51,669 --> 00:31:50,399
the the actual person who uh started

798
00:31:53,990 --> 00:31:51,679
this uh

799
00:31:55,669 --> 00:31:54,000
uh operation against women howell was

800
00:31:56,630 --> 00:31:55,679
somebody who was stationed

801
00:31:59,269 --> 00:31:56,640
back in

802
00:32:02,230 --> 00:31:59,279
new york's pity and

803
00:32:03,750 --> 00:32:02,240
he we were just uh

804
00:32:05,269 --> 00:32:03,760
a um

805
00:32:07,990 --> 00:32:05,279
assisting him

806
00:32:11,269 --> 00:32:08,000
in this in this investigation but

807
00:32:12,389 --> 00:32:11,279
so we did i did show her documents that

808
00:32:13,110 --> 00:32:12,399
they sent

809
00:32:17,269 --> 00:32:13,120
our

810
00:32:19,909 --> 00:32:17,279
and told me

811
00:32:21,110 --> 00:32:19,919
to let her read these uh intelligence

812
00:32:24,630 --> 00:32:21,120
reports

813
00:32:31,029 --> 00:32:27,110
but was this dossier just created

814
00:32:33,190 --> 00:32:31,039
fabrications or was this real nation no

815
00:32:35,269 --> 00:32:33,200
this was real absolutely

816
00:32:36,470 --> 00:32:35,279
it was real information right out of a

817
00:32:38,310 --> 00:32:36,480
briefing

818
00:32:40,149 --> 00:32:38,320
uh and we wanted

819
00:32:43,029 --> 00:32:40,159
and the reason we did this

820
00:32:45,590 --> 00:32:43,039
was we wanted to know if he had already

821
00:32:47,830 --> 00:32:45,600
had access to this the problem here is

822
00:32:49,509 --> 00:32:47,840
this you got to listen to this carefully

823
00:32:51,509 --> 00:32:49,519
okay

824
00:32:54,470 --> 00:32:51,519
the problem is this

825
00:32:57,269 --> 00:32:54,480
he already had access to classified

826
00:32:59,269 --> 00:32:57,279
information she already had a source in

827
00:33:01,509 --> 00:32:59,279
washington or or

828
00:33:03,509 --> 00:33:01,519
as we found out later more than one

829
00:33:04,630 --> 00:33:03,519
source that was providing her

830
00:33:07,750 --> 00:33:04,640
information

831
00:33:10,630 --> 00:33:07,760
now if we were to sit there and provide

832
00:33:12,310 --> 00:33:10,640
her false information then she's going

833
00:33:15,669 --> 00:33:12,320
to know or it's going to get very

834
00:33:16,470 --> 00:33:15,679
suspicious on why we were doing that

835
00:33:18,870 --> 00:33:16,480
so

836
00:33:20,950 --> 00:33:18,880
we had to we had to give her the real

837
00:33:22,950 --> 00:33:20,960
stuff let her read the real stuff we

838
00:33:25,190 --> 00:33:22,960
didn't give her anything we didn't allow

839
00:33:26,630 --> 00:33:25,200
her to take any notes she couldn't take

840
00:33:28,230 --> 00:33:26,640
any pictures

841
00:33:29,909 --> 00:33:28,240
everything was recorded through a

842
00:33:31,029 --> 00:33:29,919
one-way mirror so everything that

843
00:33:34,630 --> 00:33:31,039
happened

844
00:33:36,870 --> 00:33:34,640
was was on that videotape but why i i

845
00:33:39,590 --> 00:33:36,880
she was sitting across from me on a desk

846
00:33:41,430 --> 00:33:39,600
and i and i had this uh

847
00:33:43,990 --> 00:33:41,440
intelligence report in a folder and i

848
00:33:46,710 --> 00:33:44,000
handed it to her and i said

849
00:33:48,789 --> 00:33:46,720
miss power you can read this

850
00:33:50,710 --> 00:33:48,799
one time and then you pass it back to me

851
00:33:52,710 --> 00:33:50,720
and she did she read it

852
00:33:54,470 --> 00:33:52,720
she didn't take any notes

853
00:33:56,389 --> 00:33:54,480
or anything but she happens to have a

854
00:33:58,710 --> 00:33:56,399
photographic memory though i i don't

855
00:34:00,630 --> 00:33:58,720
know if you were exactly she does

856
00:34:02,149 --> 00:34:00,640
yeah she does and then she handed it

857
00:34:05,190 --> 00:34:02,159
back to me and she said this is

858
00:34:07,350 --> 00:34:05,200
fascinating and that's how the operation

859
00:34:09,909 --> 00:34:07,360
started and that's what my involvement

860
00:34:12,230 --> 00:34:09,919
in and with learning how i was all i had

861
00:34:14,550 --> 00:34:12,240
her and it was about a six page

862
00:34:16,069 --> 00:34:14,560
i believe it was a i think it was six

863
00:34:17,510 --> 00:34:16,079
page uh

864
00:34:19,190 --> 00:34:17,520
a document

865
00:34:21,270 --> 00:34:19,200
and and uh

866
00:34:22,389 --> 00:34:21,280
and so she read it and she handed it

867
00:34:25,109 --> 00:34:22,399
back to me and she said that's

868
00:34:27,190 --> 00:34:25,119
fascinating what more can you tell me

869
00:34:29,589 --> 00:34:27,200
and you know i said that's that's all i

870
00:34:33,270 --> 00:34:29,599
can tell you now linda but i maintain

871
00:34:36,550 --> 00:34:33,280
contact with her uh she

872
00:34:39,909 --> 00:34:36,560
called me or sent me letters or

873
00:34:41,669 --> 00:34:39,919
but i mean and but the real the real

874
00:34:43,030 --> 00:34:41,679
operation was occurring at another

875
00:34:45,430 --> 00:34:43,040
location

876
00:34:46,790 --> 00:34:45,440
so but i everything i showed you was

877
00:34:49,669 --> 00:34:46,800
fractured

878
00:34:51,030 --> 00:34:49,679
and i think i have to i have to ask you

879
00:34:53,349 --> 00:34:51,040
because a lot of people have said that

880
00:34:55,829 --> 00:34:53,359
that dossier that she was shown was

881
00:34:59,190 --> 00:34:55,839
amazingly similar to the mj 12 documents

882
00:35:00,069 --> 00:34:59,200
which would be released shortly after

883
00:35:02,790 --> 00:35:00,079
and

884
00:35:04,630 --> 00:35:02,800
i i know that for a fact you passed a

885
00:35:07,750 --> 00:35:04,640
polygraph exam where you said you did

886
00:35:10,230 --> 00:35:07,760
not show linda molten hale mj12

887
00:35:12,390 --> 00:35:10,240
documents so this wasn't mj 12 documents

888
00:35:14,230 --> 00:35:12,400
this was some other documents is that

889
00:35:17,109 --> 00:35:14,240
correct

890
00:35:18,790 --> 00:35:17,119
yes yes it was the other thing that i

891
00:35:21,430 --> 00:35:18,800
have to ask because a lot of people have

892
00:35:23,589 --> 00:35:21,440
told me i have to ask you this is as a

893
00:35:25,430 --> 00:35:23,599
as an air force sort of intelligence

894
00:35:27,109 --> 00:35:25,440
officer

895
00:35:28,870 --> 00:35:27,119
were you ever trained to be able to pass

896
00:35:30,870 --> 00:35:28,880
a polygraph

897
00:35:32,790 --> 00:35:30,880
even when lying or

898
00:35:34,230 --> 00:35:32,800
d did you really pass a polygraph

899
00:35:36,310 --> 00:35:34,240
because a lot of people say well he was

900
00:35:38,870 --> 00:35:36,320
trained he could pass a polygraph even

901
00:35:41,190 --> 00:35:38,880
if he was lying

902
00:35:42,870 --> 00:35:41,200
just another part of the vilifying of

903
00:35:44,390 --> 00:35:42,880
richard dodie i'm sorry but i have to

904
00:35:46,470 --> 00:35:44,400
ask you that you know a lot of people

905
00:35:49,670 --> 00:35:46,480
say yeah i understand and a lot of

906
00:35:52,230 --> 00:35:49,680
people also have blamed you for

907
00:35:54,470 --> 00:35:52,240
uh well i don't want to say blamed i i

908
00:35:57,829 --> 00:35:54,480
would say credited you

909
00:36:00,230 --> 00:35:57,839
for creating or disseminating or sending

910
00:36:01,829 --> 00:36:00,240
the mj12 documents you still deny that

911
00:36:03,670 --> 00:36:01,839
had anything to do with that isn't that

912
00:36:06,069 --> 00:36:03,680
correct

913
00:36:08,150 --> 00:36:06,079
the mj-12 documents i didn't have

914
00:36:09,750 --> 00:36:08,160
anything to do with it number first well

915
00:36:11,510 --> 00:36:09,760
let me go back to the polygraph part of

916
00:36:14,390 --> 00:36:11,520
it sure it is

917
00:36:16,390 --> 00:36:14,400
it is almost impossible i mean i i i

918
00:36:17,430 --> 00:36:16,400
think it is impossible

919
00:36:19,270 --> 00:36:17,440
to

920
00:36:20,470 --> 00:36:19,280
uh defeat

921
00:36:23,990 --> 00:36:20,480
a

922
00:36:24,870 --> 00:36:24,000
you by

923
00:36:42,950 --> 00:36:24,880
a

924
00:36:45,670 --> 00:36:42,960
intelligence community is extremely

925
00:36:48,150 --> 00:36:45,680
uh difficult to pass because

926
00:36:50,630 --> 00:36:48,160
of the of the methods they use

927
00:36:53,430 --> 00:36:50,640
to to administer it so

928
00:36:54,790 --> 00:36:53,440
for somebody on the outside to say oh

929
00:36:57,829 --> 00:36:54,800
yeah he can pass it you know he's

930
00:37:00,470 --> 00:36:57,839
trained to do it is absurd is that

931
00:37:01,589 --> 00:37:00,480
absolutely idiotic because it can't

932
00:37:03,109 --> 00:37:01,599
happen

933
00:37:06,230 --> 00:37:03,119
now

934
00:37:07,109 --> 00:37:06,240
on the other side of this um

935
00:37:12,870 --> 00:37:07,119
when

936
00:37:17,910 --> 00:37:12,880
released

937
00:37:21,030 --> 00:37:17,920
jamie sandera

938
00:37:23,589 --> 00:37:21,040
jamie chandira got them he got them from

939
00:37:26,950 --> 00:37:23,599
somebody in washington dc

940
00:37:28,310 --> 00:37:26,960
and then he i shared him with bill

941
00:37:29,510 --> 00:37:28,320
i have to stop you for a second because

942
00:37:32,069 --> 00:37:29,520
i'm sure people are aware of the

943
00:37:35,030 --> 00:37:32,079
sequence of events of how they got out

944
00:37:37,190 --> 00:37:35,040
first do you believe that they are

945
00:37:39,349 --> 00:37:37,200
actual real documents

946
00:37:41,109 --> 00:37:39,359
and i mean just the initial bunch

947
00:37:42,710 --> 00:37:41,119
because after that there was tons of

948
00:37:44,630 --> 00:37:42,720
them that were coming out and that a lot

949
00:37:46,630 --> 00:37:44,640
of them were suspect but the initial

950
00:37:48,630 --> 00:37:46,640
stuff that was sent to jamie chanderay

951
00:37:51,510 --> 00:37:48,640
and bill moore do you believe that they

952
00:37:54,710 --> 00:37:51,520
were actual real documents or do you

953
00:37:55,510 --> 00:37:54,720
believe they were fabrication

954
00:37:57,670 --> 00:37:55,520
well

955
00:37:59,829 --> 00:37:57,680
all i can say is that the information

956
00:38:01,910 --> 00:37:59,839
contained in those

957
00:38:04,230 --> 00:38:01,920
was was real information was it was

958
00:38:05,589 --> 00:38:04,240
accurate information now the document

959
00:38:07,270 --> 00:38:05,599
itself

960
00:38:11,750 --> 00:38:07,280
could be it could have been created by

961
00:38:13,349 --> 00:38:11,760
somebody else based on real information

962
00:38:16,710 --> 00:38:13,359
a lot of people have said that it would

963
00:38:19,190 --> 00:38:16,720
take an entire team of phd level

964
00:38:20,390 --> 00:38:19,200
document experts and history experts to

965
00:38:21,750 --> 00:38:20,400
fake those

966
00:38:23,910 --> 00:38:21,760
so i've always

967
00:38:25,990 --> 00:38:23,920
i've always leaned to the to

968
00:38:28,630 --> 00:38:26,000
to think my thinking on it is this

969
00:38:30,150 --> 00:38:28,640
either they're real or they were created

970
00:38:32,470 --> 00:38:30,160
by somebody who wanted to leak the

971
00:38:33,829 --> 00:38:32,480
information who falsified the documents

972
00:38:35,750 --> 00:38:33,839
so as not to

973
00:38:37,990 --> 00:38:35,760
you know violate any secrecy agreements

974
00:38:41,750 --> 00:38:38,000
but it would have taken an incredible

975
00:38:44,870 --> 00:38:41,760
team to do those documents so correct so

976
00:38:47,910 --> 00:38:44,880
even down to like you know the words for

977
00:38:50,390 --> 00:38:47,920
like uh a form of plastic in the in the

978
00:38:52,790 --> 00:38:50,400
50s was called something else and and

979
00:38:55,030 --> 00:38:52,800
all these tiny details and you know

980
00:38:57,030 --> 00:38:55,040
there's this website now

981
00:38:58,870 --> 00:38:57,040
and uh i don't have my notes in front of

982
00:39:00,150 --> 00:38:58,880
me but you know there's a father and son

983
00:39:01,910 --> 00:39:00,160
team that have been investigating this

984
00:39:04,069 --> 00:39:01,920
stuff forever so i've always leaned

985
00:39:06,550 --> 00:39:04,079
towards they've got to be real

986
00:39:09,910 --> 00:39:06,560
but they could be have been created by

987
00:39:11,430 --> 00:39:09,920
some team of experts i suppose but

988
00:39:12,550 --> 00:39:11,440
you're saying that the information they

989
00:39:15,109 --> 00:39:12,560
presented

990
00:39:16,790 --> 00:39:15,119
what about this uh special operations

991
00:39:18,470 --> 00:39:16,800
manual have you read that and what do

992
00:39:20,950 --> 00:39:18,480
you think of that because that seemed

993
00:39:24,230 --> 00:39:20,960
pretty like a pretty accurate document

994
00:39:28,470 --> 00:39:26,310
i was told i i didn't know anything

995
00:39:30,390 --> 00:39:28,480
about that until that i saw it and

996
00:39:32,550 --> 00:39:30,400
somebody uh when i i was in being

997
00:39:34,069 --> 00:39:32,560
interviewed a long time ago and somebody

998
00:39:36,069 --> 00:39:34,079
showed it to me

999
00:39:38,230 --> 00:39:36,079
um

1000
00:39:39,990 --> 00:39:38,240
it looks real but but i've never saw it

1001
00:39:42,790 --> 00:39:40,000
before

1002
00:39:44,230 --> 00:39:42,800
in my government duties so i can't say

1003
00:39:45,750 --> 00:39:44,240
that

1004
00:39:49,190 --> 00:39:45,760
one way or the other but it sure looks

1005
00:39:50,150 --> 00:39:49,200
real and i've had other people tell me

1006
00:39:53,430 --> 00:39:50,160
uh

1007
00:39:58,150 --> 00:39:53,440
that it was a real document so a real a

1008
00:40:01,910 --> 00:39:59,910
and i guess another question i wanted to

1009
00:40:04,309 --> 00:40:01,920
ask you is you you had a recent call

1010
00:40:06,550 --> 00:40:04,319
into another show and and uh you know

1011
00:40:08,790 --> 00:40:06,560
that created a big everybody was talking

1012
00:40:10,390 --> 00:40:08,800
about that which proves to me that

1013
00:40:12,950 --> 00:40:10,400
everybody still wants to hear from you

1014
00:40:14,309 --> 00:40:12,960
mr doty and one of the things that they

1015
00:40:15,990 --> 00:40:14,319
brought up

1016
00:40:18,550 --> 00:40:16,000
you know they brought in like an expert

1017
00:40:19,910 --> 00:40:18,560
to analyze your call and talk about it

1018
00:40:20,870 --> 00:40:19,920
and one of the things that he brought up

1019
00:40:23,270 --> 00:40:20,880
is that

1020
00:40:25,109 --> 00:40:23,280
you mentioned in that call that you were

1021
00:40:27,430 --> 00:40:25,119
briefed on roswell and roswell was a

1022
00:40:28,870 --> 00:40:27,440
real event and you saw a 16 millimeter

1023
00:40:30,950 --> 00:40:28,880
film as part of that

1024
00:40:33,829 --> 00:40:30,960
briefing can you tell us about that

1025
00:40:36,470 --> 00:40:33,839
roswell briefing and the film that you

1026
00:40:38,150 --> 00:40:36,480
saw what you were told and how that

1027
00:40:40,150 --> 00:40:38,160
briefing went because that's another

1028
00:40:44,309 --> 00:40:40,160
fascinating part of your history that

1029
00:40:48,470 --> 00:40:46,550
well the reason i was briefed in it

1030
00:40:51,270 --> 00:40:48,480
wasn't it wasn't just the roswell

1031
00:40:54,390 --> 00:40:51,280
incident i was briefed into the united

1032
00:40:57,109 --> 00:40:54,400
states involvement was extraterrestrial

1033
00:40:58,240 --> 00:40:57,119
and i i would brief into it because of

1034
00:41:01,109 --> 00:40:58,250
the uh

1035
00:41:04,150 --> 00:41:01,119
[Music]

1036
00:41:07,670 --> 00:41:04,160
we got a lot of background information

1037
00:41:08,870 --> 00:41:07,680
i'm sorry about that hold on one second

1038
00:41:11,190 --> 00:41:08,880
okay

1039
00:41:13,670 --> 00:41:11,200
i i was briefed into the program because

1040
00:41:15,070 --> 00:41:13,680
of the incident at kirtland i was a

1041
00:41:16,230 --> 00:41:15,080
counterintelligence officer

1042
00:41:18,950 --> 00:41:16,240
[Music]

1043
00:41:21,030 --> 00:41:18,960
my job was to investigate these type of

1044
00:41:21,910 --> 00:41:21,040
incidents but i had never been briefed

1045
00:41:24,870 --> 00:41:21,920
into

1046
00:41:27,589 --> 00:41:24,880
the u.s government's involvement with

1047
00:41:30,630 --> 00:41:27,599
ets or ufos

1048
00:41:32,550 --> 00:41:30,640
during my schooling or prior to the

1049
00:41:34,950 --> 00:41:32,560
incident involving

1050
00:41:36,870 --> 00:41:34,960
the coyote canyon

1051
00:41:38,790 --> 00:41:36,880
so i was

1052
00:41:40,630 --> 00:41:38,800
i received the briefing myself and

1053
00:41:43,510 --> 00:41:40,640
several others in the room

1054
00:41:46,309 --> 00:41:43,520
and in this briefing it talked about the

1055
00:41:49,750 --> 00:41:46,319
beginning which was ros level they took

1056
00:41:52,309 --> 00:41:49,760
the 16 millimeter film of the recovery

1057
00:41:55,349 --> 00:41:52,319
and that was the the roswell recovery

1058
00:41:56,150 --> 00:41:55,359
the second site in your corona

1059
00:41:57,990 --> 00:41:56,160
and

1060
00:42:00,230 --> 00:41:58,000
uh it showed

1061
00:42:02,390 --> 00:42:00,240
president truman being there

1062
00:42:03,990 --> 00:42:02,400
it showed the bodies

1063
00:42:06,470 --> 00:42:04,000
uh and so

1064
00:42:09,430 --> 00:42:06,480
that was the briefing that was just part

1065
00:42:12,069 --> 00:42:09,440
of the briefing the rest of it

1066
00:42:14,550 --> 00:42:12,079
excuse me dealt with uh

1067
00:42:18,230 --> 00:42:14,560
what what the us government learned

1068
00:42:19,349 --> 00:42:18,240
uh what cases and what types of ufos are

1069
00:42:20,550 --> 00:42:19,359
visiting

1070
00:42:22,150 --> 00:42:20,560
uh

1071
00:42:24,950 --> 00:42:22,160
planet earth

1072
00:42:26,790 --> 00:42:24,960
and so that was that was the briefing

1073
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:26,800
can i stop you for a minute and just ask

1074
00:42:28,390 --> 00:42:27,130
you

1075
00:42:31,589 --> 00:42:28,400
[Music]

1076
00:42:33,750 --> 00:42:31,599
when you experience this briefing what

1077
00:42:35,829 --> 00:42:33,760
what was going through your mind like

1078
00:42:37,910 --> 00:42:35,839
wasn't that sort of

1079
00:42:40,550 --> 00:42:37,920
changing your whole view of the world

1080
00:42:42,150 --> 00:42:40,560
and like how did you react to that even

1081
00:42:44,950 --> 00:42:42,160
you mentioned before psychologically

1082
00:42:47,829 --> 00:42:44,960
like how did you react to that once that

1083
00:42:51,190 --> 00:42:48,950
well

1084
00:42:54,150 --> 00:42:51,200
first of all i i never

1085
00:42:55,589 --> 00:42:54,160
had any inklings

1086
00:42:58,550 --> 00:42:55,599
about what had

1087
00:43:00,550 --> 00:42:58,560
had occurred i mean i spent

1088
00:43:02,870 --> 00:43:00,560
six months going to a counter a very

1089
00:43:05,109 --> 00:43:02,880
intensive counterintelligence school

1090
00:43:07,430 --> 00:43:05,119
in washington dc

1091
00:43:09,910 --> 00:43:07,440
learning all sorts of different things

1092
00:43:13,990 --> 00:43:09,920
uh but but but

1093
00:43:15,190 --> 00:43:14,000
they never ever mentioned ufos or ets in

1094
00:43:17,750 --> 00:43:15,200
in the school

1095
00:43:19,270 --> 00:43:17,760
they never ever mentioned it and and

1096
00:43:21,430 --> 00:43:19,280
prior to that

1097
00:43:23,670 --> 00:43:21,440
i was growing up

1098
00:43:26,390 --> 00:43:23,680
with a with a father that was in the air

1099
00:43:29,270 --> 00:43:26,400
force my brother was the ufo nut he

1100
00:43:30,710 --> 00:43:29,280
would buy these true magazines and and

1101
00:43:33,190 --> 00:43:30,720
books about

1102
00:43:35,589 --> 00:43:33,200
ufos and read them but i had no interest

1103
00:43:38,390 --> 00:43:35,599
whatsoever in in the subject

1104
00:43:40,950 --> 00:43:38,400
when i was told by my supervisor that i

1105
00:43:42,790 --> 00:43:40,960
was going to be briefed into a special

1106
00:43:44,470 --> 00:43:42,800
access program

1107
00:43:47,430 --> 00:43:44,480
and i went to a

1108
00:43:49,750 --> 00:43:47,440
location at curtin air force base uh air

1109
00:43:51,109 --> 00:43:49,760
force special security office to receive

1110
00:43:53,270 --> 00:43:51,119
this briefing

1111
00:43:55,510 --> 00:43:53,280
uh when they started it when the colonel

1112
00:43:58,230 --> 00:43:55,520
colonel got up there and introduced

1113
00:44:01,510 --> 00:43:58,240
himself and introduced the subject

1114
00:44:03,190 --> 00:44:01,520
i mean i had to pick myself like what

1115
00:44:05,430 --> 00:44:03,200
this is real i you know i was saying

1116
00:44:06,390 --> 00:44:05,440
this to myself all along even during the

1117
00:44:09,430 --> 00:44:06,400
briefing

1118
00:44:11,510 --> 00:44:09,440
this is real you know and i i actually

1119
00:44:12,950 --> 00:44:11,520
questioned it myself

1120
00:44:15,349 --> 00:44:12,960
is if

1121
00:44:16,710 --> 00:44:15,359
are they really giving us

1122
00:44:18,230 --> 00:44:16,720
and there were a number of other people

1123
00:44:19,990 --> 00:44:18,240
in the room

1124
00:44:24,870 --> 00:44:20,000
and i'm saying this myself are they

1125
00:44:27,510 --> 00:44:24,880
really giving us the facts or is this

1126
00:44:29,510 --> 00:44:27,520
is this not fact i mean yeah it was just

1127
00:44:31,030 --> 00:44:29,520
some kind of psychological test right

1128
00:44:32,550 --> 00:44:31,040
that's what would be

1129
00:44:35,510 --> 00:44:32,560
yeah you know that is this some kind of

1130
00:44:39,030 --> 00:44:35,520
test or something

1131
00:44:40,630 --> 00:44:39,040
i i that crossed my mind too but

1132
00:44:42,870 --> 00:44:40,640
when they started

1133
00:44:44,150 --> 00:44:42,880
when when he started uh

1134
00:44:47,030 --> 00:44:44,160
the uh

1135
00:44:47,829 --> 00:44:47,040
slide show and started showing

1136
00:44:49,190 --> 00:44:47,839
uh

1137
00:44:51,349 --> 00:44:49,200
crafts and

1138
00:44:52,790 --> 00:44:51,359
and project the classified portion of

1139
00:44:54,630 --> 00:44:52,800
project blue book

1140
00:44:56,550 --> 00:44:54,640
and then the roswell incident the

1141
00:44:59,109 --> 00:44:56,560
recovery of roswell

1142
00:45:01,430 --> 00:44:59,119
i never ever heard of roswell

1143
00:45:03,750 --> 00:45:01,440
uh incident i mean i i've never ever

1144
00:45:05,589 --> 00:45:03,760
heard of

1145
00:45:07,270 --> 00:45:05,599
do it recall what year about this was

1146
00:45:10,950 --> 00:45:07,280
just just ballpark

1147
00:45:12,710 --> 00:45:10,960
1979 79. so that was before the books

1148
00:45:14,390 --> 00:45:12,720
and the and everything in the resurgence

1149
00:45:16,069 --> 00:45:14,400
of roswell so yeah you're right you

1150
00:45:18,950 --> 00:45:16,079
you've probably never even heard of that

1151
00:45:21,190 --> 00:45:18,960
before

1152
00:45:22,470 --> 00:45:21,200
and and so i

1153
00:45:25,990 --> 00:45:22,480
uh

1154
00:45:28,150 --> 00:45:26,000
and i you couldn't take notes or

1155
00:45:30,150 --> 00:45:28,160
anything but it was just a briefing of

1156
00:45:31,190 --> 00:45:30,160
letting us know what the us government

1157
00:45:33,109 --> 00:45:31,200
would do

1158
00:45:36,069 --> 00:45:33,119
and and it was a pretty thorough

1159
00:45:38,390 --> 00:45:36,079
briefing class that i i guess maybe two

1160
00:45:40,069 --> 00:45:38,400
hours or so and at the end we had to

1161
00:45:42,230 --> 00:45:40,079
sign all these different

1162
00:45:43,910 --> 00:45:42,240
security pledges we had a

1163
00:45:46,710 --> 00:45:43,920
we had

1164
00:45:49,670 --> 00:45:46,720
another clearance level that we obtained

1165
00:45:50,870 --> 00:45:49,680
and and and so forth and so on so

1166
00:45:53,030 --> 00:45:50,880
i was

1167
00:45:55,430 --> 00:45:53,040
when i drove back

1168
00:45:57,349 --> 00:45:55,440
to my office i was uh

1169
00:45:59,589 --> 00:45:57,359
second guessing myself all the way like

1170
00:46:01,030 --> 00:45:59,599
wow this is really something

1171
00:46:02,550 --> 00:46:01,040
and it it

1172
00:46:05,510 --> 00:46:02,560
it uh

1173
00:46:07,030 --> 00:46:05,520
it puzzled me in a number of ways

1174
00:46:09,349 --> 00:46:07,040
of why

1175
00:46:11,750 --> 00:46:09,359
wasn't this stuff in the public i mean

1176
00:46:14,470 --> 00:46:11,760
why why why why how can the government

1177
00:46:16,870 --> 00:46:14,480
keep this secret that was my

1178
00:46:19,910 --> 00:46:16,880
we never had a chance to ask questions

1179
00:46:21,430 --> 00:46:19,920
but going back in the car by myself i'm

1180
00:46:24,550 --> 00:46:21,440
thinking

1181
00:46:26,790 --> 00:46:24,560
how can the government keep this secret

1182
00:46:30,150 --> 00:46:26,800
for so many years

1183
00:46:32,230 --> 00:46:30,160
and what i learned was that i was

1184
00:46:33,670 --> 00:46:32,240
they hadn't there was a lot of leaked

1185
00:46:34,390 --> 00:46:33,680
information over the years but i was

1186
00:46:36,069 --> 00:46:34,400
just

1187
00:46:37,430 --> 00:46:36,079
ignorant to it because i never followed

1188
00:46:38,950 --> 00:46:37,440
the subject

1189
00:46:41,190 --> 00:46:38,960
and some of the other people when i

1190
00:46:43,670 --> 00:46:41,200
started working with the other

1191
00:46:46,630 --> 00:46:43,680
agents involved in this

1192
00:46:47,750 --> 00:46:46,640
they they were more attuned

1193
00:46:50,550 --> 00:46:47,760
to being

1194
00:46:54,710 --> 00:46:50,560
educated in this area where i wasn't but

1195
00:46:57,190 --> 00:46:54,720
i i quickly became educated in it

1196
00:46:58,710 --> 00:46:57,200
well it's pretty amazing story

1197
00:47:00,230 --> 00:46:58,720
i i would think that your whole world

1198
00:47:02,309 --> 00:47:00,240
view changed because suddenly you know

1199
00:47:03,510 --> 00:47:02,319
there's life on other planets you know

1200
00:47:04,870 --> 00:47:03,520
they're visiting us you know the

1201
00:47:06,309 --> 00:47:04,880
government knows about it and is

1202
00:47:07,829 --> 00:47:06,319
covering it up

1203
00:47:10,710 --> 00:47:07,839
i can imagine that you had a pretty

1204
00:47:13,270 --> 00:47:10,720
crazy week ahead of that briefing just

1205
00:47:15,430 --> 00:47:13,280
in your own mind

1206
00:47:16,630 --> 00:47:15,440
well one of the things that concerned me

1207
00:47:23,750 --> 00:47:16,640
was

1208
00:47:25,750 --> 00:47:23,760
why are they coming here well are they

1209
00:47:26,870 --> 00:47:25,760
going to invade us uh i

1210
00:47:31,190 --> 00:47:26,880
you know i

1211
00:47:32,309 --> 00:47:31,200
different uh scenarios of why they're

1212
00:47:35,670 --> 00:47:32,319
coming here

1213
00:47:36,710 --> 00:47:35,680
and that was never actually answered uh

1214
00:47:39,829 --> 00:47:36,720
there were

1215
00:47:41,750 --> 00:47:39,839
some uh some information about

1216
00:47:45,270 --> 00:47:41,760
an exploration

1217
00:47:46,630 --> 00:47:45,280
or what the the the even one the one

1218
00:47:50,630 --> 00:47:46,640
that lived

1219
00:48:01,349 --> 00:47:51,349
the

1220
00:48:02,950 --> 00:48:01,359
picture was

1221
00:48:04,950 --> 00:48:02,960
and one of the things that

1222
00:48:08,390 --> 00:48:04,960
that

1223
00:48:10,790 --> 00:48:08,400
what i found out was it wasn't just one

1224
00:48:12,870 --> 00:48:10,800
alien race it was a number of different

1225
00:48:14,470 --> 00:48:12,880
alien races that had visited

1226
00:48:15,510 --> 00:48:14,480
and were visiting

1227
00:48:18,150 --> 00:48:15,520
and

1228
00:48:21,109 --> 00:48:18,160
not all of them were friendly

1229
00:48:23,349 --> 00:48:21,119
wow so that that uh kind of uh

1230
00:48:25,030 --> 00:48:23,359
you know i've often thought about like

1231
00:48:27,349 --> 00:48:25,040
there are people in the ufo field who

1232
00:48:28,309 --> 00:48:27,359
have this absolute belief

1233
00:48:31,589 --> 00:48:28,319
that

1234
00:48:34,950 --> 00:48:31,599
all extraterrestrials are are

1235
00:48:36,630 --> 00:48:34,960
you know uh beneficial and not not

1236
00:48:38,950 --> 00:48:36,640
at all

1237
00:48:41,670 --> 00:48:38,960
yeah they're all benevolent and and none

1238
00:48:43,829 --> 00:48:41,680
of them are aggressive or and it always

1239
00:48:45,430 --> 00:48:43,839
it always didn't ring true to me like

1240
00:48:46,549 --> 00:48:45,440
how can you make a blanket statement

1241
00:48:48,390 --> 00:48:46,559
like that

1242
00:48:49,990 --> 00:48:48,400
that all of them are benevolent or

1243
00:48:51,829 --> 00:48:50,000
malevolent you know i would think

1244
00:48:54,069 --> 00:48:51,839
there's got to be a mix of them and they

1245
00:48:56,390 --> 00:48:54,079
all have their own agendas and their own

1246
00:48:58,950 --> 00:48:56,400
you know priorities or reason for

1247
00:49:00,470 --> 00:48:58,960
visiting and and i was going to ask you

1248
00:49:02,150 --> 00:49:00,480
actually that leads into a question i

1249
00:49:03,270 --> 00:49:02,160
was going to ask you if you were ever

1250
00:49:05,990 --> 00:49:03,280
told

1251
00:49:09,829 --> 00:49:06,000
why they're coming here what they want

1252
00:49:14,710 --> 00:49:10,950
no

1253
00:49:16,549 --> 00:49:14,720
i was never told that by the government

1254
00:49:19,750 --> 00:49:16,559
i was told i was

1255
00:49:21,990 --> 00:49:19,760
i was uh told that by some other people

1256
00:49:23,270 --> 00:49:22,000
not officially uh people that had been

1257
00:49:26,309 --> 00:49:23,280
briefed

1258
00:49:29,270 --> 00:49:26,319
beyond my clearance

1259
00:49:30,710 --> 00:49:29,280
and and they told me that some of these

1260
00:49:34,309 --> 00:49:30,720
some of these uh

1261
00:49:36,470 --> 00:49:34,319
uh races of ets are extremely dangerous

1262
00:49:38,150 --> 00:49:36,480
and and that they're they're responsible

1263
00:49:40,630 --> 00:49:38,160
for abductions

1264
00:49:43,109 --> 00:49:40,640
they're responsible for the for the

1265
00:49:44,390 --> 00:49:43,119
travis walton case they were trapped i

1266
00:49:47,750 --> 00:49:44,400
mean there's all sorts of different

1267
00:49:51,270 --> 00:49:47,760
cases over the years that they've

1268
00:49:53,910 --> 00:49:51,280
these other these these hostile uh races

1269
00:49:56,390 --> 00:49:53,920
are responsible for it and so

1270
00:49:58,230 --> 00:49:56,400
uh and it's and it worries yeah i mean i

1271
00:50:00,069 --> 00:49:58,240
mean there's and then then i found out

1272
00:50:02,069 --> 00:50:00,079
some other things

1273
00:50:03,750 --> 00:50:02,079
uh during an investigation that i've

1274
00:50:06,069 --> 00:50:03,760
never disclosed and i'm not i'm not

1275
00:50:09,510 --> 00:50:06,079
about to because it's just it's just too

1276
00:50:10,950 --> 00:50:09,520
dramatic to even discuss

1277
00:50:11,750 --> 00:50:10,960
wow

1278
00:50:12,790 --> 00:50:11,760
so

1279
00:50:14,630 --> 00:50:12,800
i guess

1280
00:50:17,589 --> 00:50:14,640
another question that i've always had

1281
00:50:19,589 --> 00:50:17,599
and for somebody that's got such access

1282
00:50:21,589 --> 00:50:19,599
uh i think that you might be able to

1283
00:50:23,910 --> 00:50:21,599
shed some light on it is

1284
00:50:26,710 --> 00:50:23,920
why exactly do you think the government

1285
00:50:29,510 --> 00:50:26,720
has kept such a tight lid on things if

1286
00:50:31,589 --> 00:50:29,520
et craft are indeed visiting earth why

1287
00:50:35,190 --> 00:50:31,599
cover it up why not tell the public

1288
00:50:41,510 --> 00:50:38,230
well there are a lot of aspects to this

1289
00:50:43,510 --> 00:50:41,520
that you can't you can't disclose uh

1290
00:50:47,030 --> 00:50:43,520
because of the

1291
00:50:49,829 --> 00:50:47,040
of the danger factor and and uh an upset

1292
00:50:50,950 --> 00:50:49,839
in society if you if you were if you

1293
00:50:53,109 --> 00:50:50,960
were to tell

1294
00:50:55,829 --> 00:50:53,119
somebody that hey maybe jesus wasn't

1295
00:50:58,870 --> 00:50:55,839
really a religious person he was a space

1296
00:51:01,030 --> 00:50:58,880
person space man that came from uh you

1297
00:51:03,349 --> 00:51:01,040
know xavier meticulous or

1298
00:51:04,630 --> 00:51:03,359
some other planet and

1299
00:51:07,589 --> 00:51:04,640
you know that's gonna that's gonna

1300
00:51:11,030 --> 00:51:07,599
destroy people's beliefs and religion i

1301
00:51:13,990 --> 00:51:11,040
mean that's just an example but but

1302
00:51:15,829 --> 00:51:14,000
or if you tell them something about

1303
00:51:17,349 --> 00:51:15,839
alien racists

1304
00:51:19,510 --> 00:51:17,359
coming here

1305
00:51:22,069 --> 00:51:19,520
then they think of the word of worlds

1306
00:51:25,109 --> 00:51:22,079
and all those movies that came out about

1307
00:51:27,990 --> 00:51:25,119
invasions from the martians or or from

1308
00:51:29,990 --> 00:51:28,000
other races independence day

1309
00:51:30,870 --> 00:51:30,000
yeah independence day

1310
00:51:33,349 --> 00:51:30,880
so

1311
00:51:36,069 --> 00:51:33,359
it just it's just not

1312
00:51:38,710 --> 00:51:36,079
practical as far as i'm seeing see and i

1313
00:51:41,030 --> 00:51:38,720
think the government feels the same way

1314
00:51:42,470 --> 00:51:41,040
is is disclosing this

1315
00:51:44,790 --> 00:51:42,480
you know if they held a news conference

1316
00:51:46,790 --> 00:51:44,800
right now in washington and sat for five

1317
00:51:49,109 --> 00:51:46,800
or six hours and disclosed

1318
00:51:50,150 --> 00:51:49,119
uh to the public everything the

1319
00:51:51,270 --> 00:51:50,160
government

1320
00:51:53,430 --> 00:51:51,280
knows about

1321
00:51:55,829 --> 00:51:53,440
this subject uh i think there would be

1322
00:51:58,150 --> 00:51:55,839
some some upset in society probably

1323
00:51:59,910 --> 00:51:58,160
stark stock market would crash

1324
00:52:02,069 --> 00:51:59,920
i mean there's all sorts of things that

1325
00:52:04,150 --> 00:52:02,079
could probably happen

1326
00:52:06,870 --> 00:52:04,160
okay that leads me to another general

1327
00:52:09,030 --> 00:52:06,880
question is were you ever given or had

1328
00:52:10,630 --> 00:52:09,040
access to information regarding ufo

1329
00:52:13,510 --> 00:52:10,640
crash retrievals

1330
00:52:15,750 --> 00:52:13,520
besides roswell i mean or

1331
00:52:18,710 --> 00:52:15,760
details regarding the government's back

1332
00:52:20,870 --> 00:52:18,720
engineering efforts of those of those

1333
00:52:22,630 --> 00:52:20,880
things that were retrieved or somehow

1334
00:52:25,349 --> 00:52:22,640
came into the possession of the

1335
00:52:29,990 --> 00:52:27,990
yes in the in the briefing in 79 it

1336
00:52:31,109 --> 00:52:30,000
talked about the retrieval of a number

1337
00:52:33,510 --> 00:52:31,119
of different

1338
00:52:34,549 --> 00:52:33,520
crafts and not just in the united states

1339
00:52:36,710 --> 00:52:34,559
and it

1340
00:52:42,230 --> 00:52:36,720
they it talked about

1341
00:52:47,030 --> 00:52:44,790
e.t crafts that have been recovered in

1342
00:52:50,230 --> 00:52:47,040
other parts of the world laos

1343
00:52:52,630 --> 00:52:50,240
uh france uh africa

1344
00:52:54,710 --> 00:52:52,640
uh inside the soviet union or former

1345
00:52:56,549 --> 00:52:54,720
soviet union

1346
00:52:57,990 --> 00:52:56,559
that leads me to another question that

1347
00:52:59,990 --> 00:52:58,000
leads me to another question about your

1348
00:53:01,990 --> 00:53:00,000
recent call into another show you

1349
00:53:03,109 --> 00:53:02,000
mentioned that roswell was real but

1350
00:53:05,829 --> 00:53:03,119
somehow

1351
00:53:08,549 --> 00:53:05,839
afterwards they analyzed everything you

1352
00:53:10,470 --> 00:53:08,559
said and were somehow perplexed that you

1353
00:53:13,030 --> 00:53:10,480
said roswell was real but you did not

1354
00:53:15,829 --> 00:53:13,040
mention aztec which was in the dossier

1355
00:53:17,589 --> 00:53:15,839
given to linda molten hale what can you

1356
00:53:19,510 --> 00:53:17,599
tell us about the aztec crash was that

1357
00:53:22,069 --> 00:53:19,520
real or a hoax and

1358
00:53:24,870 --> 00:53:22,079
what do you know about that

1359
00:53:26,549 --> 00:53:24,880
well all it said in all it said about

1360
00:53:27,990 --> 00:53:26,559
the aztec crash

1361
00:53:30,630 --> 00:53:28,000
is that said

1362
00:53:33,270 --> 00:53:30,640
a craft was recovered in ass

1363
00:53:35,670 --> 00:53:33,280
near aztec new mexico

1364
00:53:37,190 --> 00:53:35,680
that's it nothing else was ever

1365
00:53:39,349 --> 00:53:37,200
mentioned so

1366
00:53:42,710 --> 00:53:39,359
i'm not really sure if

1367
00:53:45,670 --> 00:53:42,720
i i initially thought that maybe the

1368
00:53:50,309 --> 00:53:45,680
the aztec craft

1369
00:53:52,549 --> 00:53:50,319
was part of the the uh crash that the

1370
00:53:57,190 --> 00:53:52,559
the crap that crashed

1371
00:53:59,750 --> 00:53:57,200
in ra and and crona and magdalena and

1372
00:54:01,829 --> 00:53:59,760
so that was just part of me talking that

1373
00:54:02,710 --> 00:54:01,839
i'm not sure really about the aztec

1374
00:54:03,990 --> 00:54:02,720
crash

1375
00:54:06,230 --> 00:54:04,000
because

1376
00:54:08,390 --> 00:54:06,240
i've never seen or other than the books

1377
00:54:09,349 --> 00:54:08,400
that were written about it

1378
00:54:13,589 --> 00:54:09,359
now

1379
00:54:15,589 --> 00:54:13,599
i ironically just recently a a a retired

1380
00:54:18,630 --> 00:54:15,599
colonel air force colonel

1381
00:54:21,829 --> 00:54:18,640
told me that he was and he's very icy in

1382
00:54:25,670 --> 00:54:21,839
his 90s or early 90s he told me that the

1383
00:54:29,030 --> 00:54:25,680
aztec was in fact real it did happen

1384
00:54:29,910 --> 00:54:29,040
and that uh

1385
00:54:32,470 --> 00:54:29,920
that

1386
00:54:34,390 --> 00:54:32,480
they recovered some bodies and

1387
00:54:36,390 --> 00:54:34,400
and that and

1388
00:54:38,870 --> 00:54:36,400
those bodies went

1389
00:54:42,069 --> 00:54:38,880
to another location

1390
00:54:45,109 --> 00:54:42,079
and uh so

1391
00:54:47,270 --> 00:54:45,119
but i just found that out just recently

1392
00:54:49,589 --> 00:54:47,280
so i i'm not gonna

1393
00:54:51,750 --> 00:54:49,599
sit here and talk to you about something

1394
00:54:53,829 --> 00:54:51,760
that i'm not really sure about i'm going

1395
00:54:55,109 --> 00:54:53,839
to tell you fast if you want to believe

1396
00:54:56,870 --> 00:54:55,119
it you can believe it if you don't

1397
00:54:58,710 --> 00:54:56,880
believe it you don't have to believe it

1398
00:55:00,309 --> 00:54:58,720
that's what i tell people i appreciate

1399
00:55:01,670 --> 00:55:00,319
it i appreciate you i appreciate your

1400
00:55:03,190 --> 00:55:01,680
honesty that's what we're trying to get

1401
00:55:04,950 --> 00:55:03,200
to we're trying to get to the truth of

1402
00:55:06,870 --> 00:55:04,960
this thing and i think like i keep

1403
00:55:09,030 --> 00:55:06,880
saying that you're in a position better

1404
00:55:11,270 --> 00:55:09,040
than most people to give true and

1405
00:55:12,549 --> 00:55:11,280
accurate information you know i don't

1406
00:55:14,390 --> 00:55:12,559
even want to mention his name but

1407
00:55:17,109 --> 00:55:14,400
there's somebody running around with a

1408
00:55:19,829 --> 00:55:17,119
tv show on the secret space program

1409
00:55:23,030 --> 00:55:19,839
telling all kinds of fantastic stories

1410
00:55:25,829 --> 00:55:23,040
with zero proof zero evidence zero

1411
00:55:27,750 --> 00:55:25,839
documentation to prove that he ever had

1412
00:55:29,589 --> 00:55:27,760
any part in any of this

1413
00:55:31,750 --> 00:55:29,599
it's not provable or disprovable

1414
00:55:34,069 --> 00:55:31,760
anything that he's saying all i'm asking

1415
00:55:35,430 --> 00:55:34,079
you to do is talk about

1416
00:55:37,589 --> 00:55:35,440
to your knowledge

1417
00:55:39,190 --> 00:55:37,599
and and i think you have a vast amount

1418
00:55:40,710 --> 00:55:39,200
of knowledge having been involved in

1419
00:55:42,950 --> 00:55:40,720
this for so long

1420
00:55:44,950 --> 00:55:42,960
i guess the other question is about the

1421
00:55:45,990 --> 00:55:44,960
back engineering efforts did you hear

1422
00:55:48,470 --> 00:55:46,000
about

1423
00:55:49,510 --> 00:55:48,480
any projects trying to back engineer

1424
00:55:52,710 --> 00:55:49,520
some of this stuff that they're

1425
00:55:54,390 --> 00:55:52,720
recovering and and how that was going or

1426
00:55:56,150 --> 00:55:54,400
did they not really get into that with

1427
00:55:59,349 --> 00:55:56,160
you

1428
00:56:02,309 --> 00:55:59,359
no i didn't have a

1429
00:56:04,710 --> 00:56:02,319
i need to know that i i can't discuss

1430
00:56:06,549 --> 00:56:04,720
the only thing that i that i had

1431
00:56:10,309 --> 00:56:06,559
some access to

1432
00:56:12,549 --> 00:56:10,319
was the cash landrum incident and uh

1433
00:56:15,190 --> 00:56:12,559
and and what had occurred

1434
00:56:17,270 --> 00:56:15,200
uh but but nothing in any great

1435
00:56:19,829 --> 00:56:17,280
technical details because i just wasn't

1436
00:56:21,829 --> 00:56:19,839
uh what i was an intelligence officer i

1437
00:56:23,990 --> 00:56:21,839
didn't i didn't have access to the

1438
00:56:25,990 --> 00:56:24,000
technical intelligence and that was a

1439
00:56:27,829 --> 00:56:26,000
different area well that case has always

1440
00:56:29,670 --> 00:56:27,839
been interesting to me because of the

1441
00:56:32,150 --> 00:56:29,680
physical effects of the of those

1442
00:56:35,349 --> 00:56:32,160
witnesses that got basically radiation

1443
00:56:39,109 --> 00:56:35,359
poisoning and also the report of the the

1444
00:56:40,789 --> 00:56:39,119
helicopters uh in pursuit of the craft

1445
00:56:42,069 --> 00:56:40,799
always led me to believe that that was

1446
00:56:43,589 --> 00:56:42,079
some sort of

1447
00:56:45,990 --> 00:56:43,599
government project and not

1448
00:56:48,630 --> 00:56:46,000
extraterrestrial what can you tell us to

1449
00:56:49,910 --> 00:56:48,640
shed light on that case

1450
00:56:51,510 --> 00:56:49,920
well it was it wasn't an

1451
00:56:53,270 --> 00:56:51,520
extraterrestrial crash but the

1452
00:56:57,109 --> 00:56:53,280
propulsion system

1453
00:56:59,670 --> 00:56:57,119
craft

1454
00:57:02,309 --> 00:56:59,680
we couldn't figure out how to how to

1455
00:57:04,390 --> 00:57:02,319
operate it was up in area 51

1456
00:57:06,870 --> 00:57:04,400
the craft was there they tried to

1457
00:57:09,270 --> 00:57:06,880
reverse engineer it and they just

1458
00:57:12,069 --> 00:57:09,280
couldn't get the the propulsion system

1459
00:57:14,950 --> 00:57:12,079
to work so they took the propulsion

1460
00:57:17,270 --> 00:57:14,960
system out they put an experimental

1461
00:57:19,510 --> 00:57:17,280
propulsion system in which which was a

1462
00:57:21,910 --> 00:57:19,520
nuclear uh uh

1463
00:57:23,670 --> 00:57:21,920
generator type of and i and i'm not

1464
00:57:25,349 --> 00:57:23,680
technical so i can't i can't explain

1465
00:57:27,670 --> 00:57:25,359
exactly what it was but it has something

1466
00:57:29,190 --> 00:57:27,680
to do with nuclear propulsion and then

1467
00:57:30,470 --> 00:57:29,200
they flew it and they were flying it

1468
00:57:33,190 --> 00:57:30,480
from

1469
00:57:36,230 --> 00:57:33,200
area 51 nevada area all the way down to

1470
00:57:38,549 --> 00:57:36,240
uh to a base in texas

1471
00:57:41,030 --> 00:57:38,559
and along the way

1472
00:57:42,549 --> 00:57:41,040
the the craft experienced uh

1473
00:57:43,349 --> 00:57:42,559
some problems

1474
00:57:52,630 --> 00:57:43,359
and

1475
00:57:54,630 --> 00:57:52,640
government basically

1476
00:57:56,390 --> 00:57:54,640
admitted that when they let them go to

1477
00:57:57,910 --> 00:57:56,400
the hospital and treated them but they

1478
00:58:01,349 --> 00:57:57,920
and they didn't come out publicly and

1479
00:58:02,630 --> 00:58:01,359
say anything but as i was told they

1480
00:58:05,349 --> 00:58:02,640
called

1481
00:58:06,870 --> 00:58:05,359
as i was told i told this by the air

1482
00:58:09,190 --> 00:58:06,880
force that

1483
00:58:11,349 --> 00:58:09,200
the people involved in this were told it

1484
00:58:14,309 --> 00:58:11,359
was a military aircraft

1485
00:58:15,750 --> 00:58:14,319
they didn't say it was an atari

1486
00:58:18,230 --> 00:58:15,760
but what you're saying is that it was a

1487
00:58:20,549 --> 00:58:18,240
captured or a recovered et craft that

1488
00:58:22,549 --> 00:58:20,559
they somehow back engineered and and

1489
00:58:24,710 --> 00:58:22,559
hybridized with some kind of nuclear

1490
00:58:27,190 --> 00:58:24,720
propulsion system to get it to work and

1491
00:58:29,990 --> 00:58:27,200
this was a test flight that

1492
00:58:32,630 --> 00:58:30,000
that created this case

1493
00:58:34,549 --> 00:58:32,640
yes exactly yeah that's pretty amazing

1494
00:58:37,990 --> 00:58:34,559
and i and i was freaked into that so i

1495
00:58:40,470 --> 00:58:38,000
know i was fully briefed into that i was

1496
00:58:42,789 --> 00:58:40,480
peripherally in law involved in it

1497
00:58:44,789 --> 00:58:42,799
so i know about that but

1498
00:58:46,150 --> 00:58:44,799
now there's another case

1499
00:58:47,910 --> 00:58:46,160
that occurred

1500
00:58:50,390 --> 00:58:47,920
that some people have

1501
00:58:53,109 --> 00:58:50,400
have talked about up in nevada

1502
00:58:53,990 --> 00:58:53,119
which uh involved another k

1503
00:58:56,470 --> 00:58:54,000
they're

1504
00:58:58,630 --> 00:58:56,480
they some people are claiming i think

1505
00:59:01,030 --> 00:58:58,640
george snapped a specialness a long time

1506
00:59:03,670 --> 00:59:01,040
ago about about an incident happened in

1507
00:59:06,230 --> 00:59:03,680
uh near warm springs nevada where a

1508
00:59:07,829 --> 00:59:06,240
craft branded and irrigated some cattle

1509
00:59:09,030 --> 00:59:07,839
kill

1510
00:59:11,510 --> 00:59:09,040
radiation

1511
00:59:14,309 --> 00:59:11,520
and they're saying and according to what

1512
00:59:16,789 --> 00:59:14,319
was aired that was the same craft as a

1513
00:59:18,789 --> 00:59:16,799
cache lantern case but that wasn't it

1514
00:59:21,349 --> 00:59:18,799
was a different one

1515
00:59:22,710 --> 00:59:21,359
so i if you know about that case yeah

1516
00:59:25,190 --> 00:59:22,720
yeah i've heard of that case before a

1517
00:59:26,470 --> 00:59:25,200
big fan of george knapp here

1518
00:59:28,390 --> 00:59:26,480
and so

1519
00:59:30,230 --> 00:59:28,400
i guess

1520
00:59:32,309 --> 00:59:30,240
i'd like to get back to

1521
00:59:34,549 --> 00:59:32,319
something that you mentioned about the

1522
00:59:36,150 --> 00:59:34,559
ebe bodies

1523
00:59:39,109 --> 00:59:36,160
were you given access to information

1524
00:59:42,230 --> 00:59:39,119
about ebe bodies their storage locations

1525
00:59:45,190 --> 00:59:43,589
the only thing i

1526
00:59:47,270 --> 00:59:45,200
had access to one thing was in a

1527
00:59:48,390 --> 00:59:47,280
briefing film was that the

1528
00:59:49,990 --> 00:59:48,400
the uh

1529
00:59:52,390 --> 00:59:50,000
there were

1530
00:59:54,950 --> 00:59:52,400
five bodies recovered at the crash site

1531
00:59:57,510 --> 00:59:54,960
in corona near krona and those bodies

1532
01:00:01,430 --> 00:59:57,520
went to uh wright-patterson air force

1533
01:00:03,510 --> 01:00:01,440
base the live alien uh the evil one that

1534
01:00:06,789 --> 01:00:03,520
they they captured

1535
01:00:11,430 --> 01:00:06,799
uh went to uh los angeles they

1536
01:00:14,230 --> 01:00:11,440
initially went to uh i believe um

1537
01:00:16,789 --> 01:00:14,240
kirtland or back then of the sandia base

1538
01:00:20,069 --> 01:00:16,799
and then to the los angeles because that

1539
01:00:21,270 --> 01:00:20,079
was the safest and most secure as a

1540
01:00:22,230 --> 01:00:21,280
location in

1541
01:00:24,549 --> 01:00:22,240
planet

1542
01:00:26,069 --> 01:00:24,559
and were you given any information about

1543
01:00:29,510 --> 01:00:26,079
anything that they learned from the

1544
01:00:31,109 --> 01:00:29,520
living one or what happened to it

1545
01:00:32,150 --> 01:00:31,119
well yeah

1546
01:00:34,390 --> 01:00:32,160
yeah

1547
01:00:36,549 --> 01:00:34,400
it it

1548
01:00:37,910 --> 01:00:36,559
disclosed where it came from

1549
01:00:40,150 --> 01:00:37,920
and

1550
01:00:42,870 --> 01:00:40,160
approximately the the

1551
01:00:46,230 --> 01:00:42,880
time it took to travel from

1552
01:00:49,109 --> 01:00:46,240
one point uh from their planet to ours

1553
01:00:53,030 --> 01:00:49,119
that the that the uh uh

1554
01:00:54,309 --> 01:00:53,040
the even the this even his race had a

1555
01:00:57,109 --> 01:00:54,319
had some

1556
01:00:58,789 --> 01:00:57,119
satellite locations or satellite bases

1557
01:01:01,910 --> 01:00:58,799
in our solar system

1558
01:01:03,349 --> 01:01:01,920
that they use for refueling and use for

1559
01:01:04,549 --> 01:01:03,359
other things

1560
01:01:07,829 --> 01:01:04,559
um

1561
01:01:08,789 --> 01:01:07,839
and that the in general and anatomy of

1562
01:01:11,430 --> 01:01:08,799
the of

1563
01:01:15,109 --> 01:01:11,440
even though that had one

1564
01:01:16,230 --> 01:01:15,119
had one organ that was worked as a as a

1565
01:01:21,109 --> 01:01:16,240
lung

1566
01:01:24,710 --> 01:01:21,119
had a very very simple digestion system

1567
01:01:27,030 --> 01:01:24,720
uh and had sex that are male female

1568
01:01:29,030 --> 01:01:27,040
and had a very enlarged brain with a

1569
01:01:30,069 --> 01:01:29,040
number of different lobes more lobes

1570
01:01:31,750 --> 01:01:30,079
than me

1571
01:01:34,870 --> 01:01:31,760
it was basically the only the only

1572
01:01:36,230 --> 01:01:34,880
anatomy and physiology that i that i

1573
01:01:37,750 --> 01:01:36,240
learned

1574
01:01:39,349 --> 01:01:37,760
well and i'd like to get back to another

1575
01:01:41,990 --> 01:01:39,359
rumor about you

1576
01:01:44,549 --> 01:01:42,000
uh that i've heard that some people have

1577
01:01:46,870 --> 01:01:44,559
said that you worked for the cia in laos

1578
01:01:48,470 --> 01:01:46,880
before your air force work and i just

1579
01:01:50,630 --> 01:01:48,480
wanted to ask you straight out is this

1580
01:01:57,829 --> 01:01:50,640
true are you now or were you ever

1581
01:02:03,029 --> 01:01:59,910
um see how these stories about you get

1582
01:02:04,549 --> 01:02:03,039
going like it becomes fact

1583
01:02:07,029 --> 01:02:04,559
but nobody's ever asked you so i wanted

1584
01:02:09,510 --> 01:02:07,039
to ask you straight out before

1585
01:02:11,910 --> 01:02:09,520
air force officer special intelligence

1586
01:02:13,349 --> 01:02:11,920
were you were you a ceo or an asset

1587
01:02:14,630 --> 01:02:13,359
would you say that

1588
01:02:17,670 --> 01:02:14,640
no no

1589
01:02:19,670 --> 01:02:17,680
well i'd say i was in laos

1590
01:02:23,910 --> 01:02:19,680
uh in a

1591
01:02:29,670 --> 01:02:26,789
classified location in laos

1592
01:02:31,829 --> 01:02:29,680
where the cia was uh

1593
01:02:33,990 --> 01:02:31,839
was running the base

1594
01:02:36,789 --> 01:02:34,000
so but i didn't

1595
01:02:39,670 --> 01:02:36,799
actually working for them no i was not

1596
01:02:43,029 --> 01:02:39,680
working for the cia when i was i was

1597
01:02:46,230 --> 01:02:43,039
uh at a base where they were in charge

1598
01:02:47,430 --> 01:02:46,240
and we worked with them but but not not

1599
01:02:49,990 --> 01:02:47,440
for

1600
01:02:52,950 --> 01:02:50,000
now as far as uh

1601
01:02:55,510 --> 01:02:52,960
present day or or during my time in

1602
01:02:56,789 --> 01:02:55,520
intelligence you do realize

1603
01:02:58,470 --> 01:02:56,799
everybody still thinks that you're

1604
01:02:59,670 --> 01:02:58,480
somehow active nobody believes that

1605
01:03:01,510 --> 01:02:59,680
you're retired

1606
01:03:02,789 --> 01:03:01,520
i know that you're a state trooper for a

1607
01:03:04,549 --> 01:03:02,799
time

1608
01:03:06,390 --> 01:03:04,559
and i i always thought well it's going

1609
01:03:08,150 --> 01:03:06,400
to be pretty hard for him to maintain a

1610
01:03:11,510 --> 01:03:08,160
full-time job doing that and still be

1611
01:03:13,670 --> 01:03:11,520
some kind of secret agent spy ufo guy

1612
01:03:15,510 --> 01:03:13,680
but people are adamant that you're still

1613
01:03:17,829 --> 01:03:15,520
that you're still somehow active that

1614
01:03:20,630 --> 01:03:17,839
you're still manipulating people and all

1615
01:03:21,430 --> 01:03:20,640
these other things

1616
01:03:28,150 --> 01:03:21,440
no

1617
01:03:28,950 --> 01:03:28,160
government haven't in a number of years

1618
01:03:33,109 --> 01:03:28,960
i

1619
01:03:35,190 --> 01:03:33,119
government agency now

1620
01:03:38,150 --> 01:03:35,200
during my time as an intelligence

1621
01:03:40,390 --> 01:03:38,160
officer in the air force i did work with

1622
01:03:42,789 --> 01:03:40,400
i was trained by the cia

1623
01:03:45,510 --> 01:03:42,799
i was in europe where i was assigned to

1624
01:03:48,470 --> 01:03:45,520
a a unit that was uh

1625
01:03:50,150 --> 01:03:48,480
that that then then i did work for the

1626
01:03:51,270 --> 01:03:50,160
cia because they were in charge of the

1627
01:03:54,150 --> 01:03:51,280
team

1628
01:03:55,829 --> 01:03:54,160
and they had nothing to do with ufos

1629
01:03:57,750 --> 01:03:55,839
intelligence uh

1630
01:03:59,990 --> 01:03:57,760
and counterintelligence encountering us

1631
01:04:02,549 --> 01:04:00,000
now exactly what we did in europe

1632
01:04:03,349 --> 01:04:02,559
but so i didn't have anything to do with

1633
01:04:05,430 --> 01:04:03,359
uh

1634
01:04:08,549 --> 01:04:05,440
the cia since then

1635
01:04:11,829 --> 01:04:08,559
uh and um otherwise people are saying

1636
01:04:13,990 --> 01:04:11,839
and i have a i have a thorn in my side

1637
01:04:16,789 --> 01:04:14,000
his name is robert collins and he

1638
01:04:20,309 --> 01:04:16,799
he keeps telling people i work for dia

1639
01:04:22,630 --> 01:04:20,319
and i i was seen in vi headquarters and

1640
01:04:23,829 --> 01:04:22,640
all these all these lies that that are

1641
01:04:25,589 --> 01:04:23,839
just not true

1642
01:04:28,150 --> 01:04:25,599
yeah i've heard i've heard him talk

1643
01:04:30,390 --> 01:04:28,160
about you and it seems to me that

1644
01:04:32,870 --> 01:04:30,400
either he's uh

1645
01:04:34,950 --> 01:04:32,880
better informed than everyone else on on

1646
01:04:36,710 --> 01:04:34,960
the planet or that he did have some kind

1647
01:04:37,910 --> 01:04:36,720
of information but he's never been able

1648
01:04:40,309 --> 01:04:37,920
to provide

1649
01:04:42,789 --> 01:04:40,319
documentation or proof to back up most

1650
01:04:46,230 --> 01:04:42,799
of his claims so you're saying that he's

1651
01:04:48,390 --> 01:04:46,240
just i don't know making up stories or

1652
01:04:50,789 --> 01:04:48,400
yeah he's making up stories all right

1653
01:04:52,870 --> 01:04:50,799
i think he's psychotic i don't know he's

1654
01:04:55,510 --> 01:04:52,880
he he makes up so many different stories

1655
01:04:57,349 --> 01:04:55,520
about me claims that i co-authored a

1656
01:04:59,270 --> 01:04:57,359
book with him which i didn't co-author

1657
01:05:01,109 --> 01:04:59,280
any book yeah that was going to be that

1658
01:05:02,630 --> 01:05:01,119
was going to be my next thing that was a

1659
01:05:03,990 --> 01:05:02,640
big thing on the internet for a while i

1660
01:05:05,510 --> 01:05:04,000
remember that

1661
01:05:08,069 --> 01:05:05,520
when he came out with that book and he

1662
01:05:09,910 --> 01:05:08,079
put you as a co-author and then you said

1663
01:05:13,349 --> 01:05:09,920
i didn't co-author this book what do you

1664
01:05:15,029 --> 01:05:13,359
this you denied any involvement but he

1665
01:05:17,430 --> 01:05:15,039
somehow claimed that you co-authored the

1666
01:05:19,349 --> 01:05:17,440
book a lot of people have said that he

1667
01:05:21,109 --> 01:05:19,359
just used you as a source and then he

1668
01:05:22,470 --> 01:05:21,119
took it a little too far what do you

1669
01:05:24,549 --> 01:05:22,480
have to say about that book and your

1670
01:05:25,589 --> 01:05:24,559
involvement in it

1671
01:05:27,510 --> 01:05:25,599
well

1672
01:05:28,710 --> 01:05:27,520
some of the information in that book i

1673
01:05:30,710 --> 01:05:28,720
did provide

1674
01:05:33,270 --> 01:05:30,720
we worked together for a number of

1675
01:05:36,069 --> 01:05:33,280
probably two or two years three years

1676
01:05:37,510 --> 01:05:36,079
in the early 2000s it was a guy out of

1677
01:05:39,670 --> 01:05:37,520
los alamos

1678
01:05:41,270 --> 01:05:39,680
that that i introduced him to they

1679
01:05:43,190 --> 01:05:41,280
introduced collins to

1680
01:05:45,510 --> 01:05:43,200
and

1681
01:05:47,109 --> 01:05:45,520
he provided collins with a lot of

1682
01:05:49,510 --> 01:05:47,119
information and

1683
01:05:50,630 --> 01:05:49,520
allegedly that was factual that he put

1684
01:05:53,750 --> 01:05:50,640
in the book

1685
01:05:56,390 --> 01:05:53,760
but uh i didn't i mean everything that i

1686
01:05:58,390 --> 01:05:56,400
gave him was open source stuff that i

1687
01:06:00,630 --> 01:05:58,400
has already been out in the public

1688
01:06:02,470 --> 01:06:00,640
and that then

1689
01:06:04,230 --> 01:06:02,480
he told me he was going to write a book

1690
01:06:07,910 --> 01:06:04,240
and i said well good luck in writing the

1691
01:06:10,630 --> 01:06:07,920
book and when he published the book

1692
01:06:13,190 --> 01:06:10,640
uh i didn't realize it until he sent me

1693
01:06:14,870 --> 01:06:13,200
a copy that my name was on it and i i

1694
01:06:17,430 --> 01:06:14,880
immediately called him and said

1695
01:06:18,950 --> 01:06:17,440
robert i didn't co-author this we have

1696
01:06:21,910 --> 01:06:18,960
no contracts

1697
01:06:23,510 --> 01:06:21,920
together just for this book

1698
01:06:26,630 --> 01:06:23,520
and of course this is just a side note

1699
01:06:28,230 --> 01:06:26,640
but he kept all the money right

1700
01:06:29,670 --> 01:06:28,240
from the side exactly you never knew

1701
01:06:36,630 --> 01:06:29,680
around you with me

1702
01:06:39,589 --> 01:06:38,069
i think it couldn't have hurt to sell

1703
01:06:41,670 --> 01:06:39,599
the book to put your name on it maybe

1704
01:06:42,870 --> 01:06:41,680
that was his motivation i always look

1705
01:06:46,309 --> 01:06:42,880
follow the money when you're

1706
01:06:49,190 --> 01:06:46,319
investigating these things

1707
01:06:51,589 --> 01:06:49,200
yeah and he never gave me again he

1708
01:06:53,829 --> 01:06:51,599
client claims he had to cancel jack

1709
01:06:55,670 --> 01:06:53,839
that that but that was not for the book

1710
01:06:57,589 --> 01:06:55,680
it had nothing to do with the book he

1711
01:06:59,829 --> 01:06:57,599
asked me to do a number of things for

1712
01:07:01,990 --> 01:06:59,839
him out here in new mexico and i did and

1713
01:07:04,630 --> 01:07:02,000
he paid me for it and then he now he's

1714
01:07:06,870 --> 01:07:04,640
saying oh that check was uh payment on

1715
01:07:08,789 --> 01:07:06,880
the book which it wasn't because it was

1716
01:07:09,670 --> 01:07:08,799
just for the work that i did out here

1717
01:07:11,190 --> 01:07:09,680
for me

1718
01:07:13,510 --> 01:07:11,200
then i mean to do with it but it was way

1719
01:07:16,390 --> 01:07:13,520
before the book was ever published

1720
01:07:19,349 --> 01:07:16,400
and so i tried to sue him i went i hired

1721
01:07:21,510 --> 01:07:19,359
an attorney in ohio i went through the

1722
01:07:23,589 --> 01:07:21,520
the hoops but it was going to cost me

1723
01:07:26,630 --> 01:07:23,599
more money it was worth

1724
01:07:27,349 --> 01:07:26,640
to sue the idiot so i decided not to

1725
01:07:29,349 --> 01:07:27,359
yeah

1726
01:07:34,150 --> 01:07:29,359
lawyers always just make the most money

1727
01:07:38,950 --> 01:07:36,390
so your background as air force special

1728
01:07:41,589 --> 01:07:38,960
intelligence is not in dispute

1729
01:07:43,270 --> 01:07:41,599
everybody can verify your background as

1730
01:07:45,190 --> 01:07:43,280
being a hundred percent accurate and a

1731
01:07:47,109 --> 01:07:45,200
lot of people in the ufo field you can't

1732
01:07:49,190 --> 01:07:47,119
say that about you have these guys

1733
01:07:49,990 --> 01:07:49,200
running around saying they worked at s4

1734
01:07:52,470 --> 01:07:50,000
and then

1735
01:07:54,390 --> 01:07:52,480
their education doesn't pan out they

1736
01:07:56,150 --> 01:07:54,400
don't have employment records

1737
01:07:57,029 --> 01:07:56,160
but everything that that you're talking

1738
01:07:59,270 --> 01:07:57,039
about

1739
01:08:03,910 --> 01:07:59,280
i tend to believe because

1740
01:08:06,470 --> 01:08:05,029
that's right

1741
01:08:08,549 --> 01:08:06,480
absolutely yeah

1742
01:08:11,270 --> 01:08:08,559
i i'm proven

1743
01:08:12,950 --> 01:08:11,280
i've proved myself a number of times i

1744
01:08:15,029 --> 01:08:12,960
mean anybody can i mean there's been a

1745
01:08:17,349 --> 01:08:15,039
lot of people who look at my records

1746
01:08:19,669 --> 01:08:17,359
and can read them and see that i was at

1747
01:08:22,630 --> 01:08:19,679
area 51 i was at

1748
01:08:25,910 --> 01:08:22,640
at uh kartland i was in germany i was

1749
01:08:27,669 --> 01:08:25,920
here i did this i had these clearances

1750
01:08:29,349 --> 01:08:27,679
i had a guy that sent me i don't know

1751
01:08:31,510 --> 01:08:29,359
how he got it because he wasn't supposed

1752
01:08:34,950 --> 01:08:31,520
to get it but i got a guy

1753
01:08:35,749 --> 01:08:34,960
a few a couple years ago that sent me my

1754
01:08:38,870 --> 01:08:35,759
my

1755
01:08:40,390 --> 01:08:38,880
one a serial file which is the

1756
01:08:42,709 --> 01:08:40,400
the file that lists all your

1757
01:08:45,030 --> 01:08:42,719
classification all your clearances i

1758
01:08:47,189 --> 01:08:45,040
mean i i asked him and i don't know this

1759
01:08:48,789 --> 01:08:47,199
guy he just sent me an email and sent an

1760
01:08:51,349 --> 01:08:48,799
attachment to an email i said how did

1761
01:08:53,749 --> 01:08:51,359
you get this he said well somebody gave

1762
01:08:55,669 --> 01:08:53,759
it to me but he said

1763
01:08:57,510 --> 01:08:55,679
what does all these numbers mean i never

1764
01:08:59,030 --> 01:08:57,520
told him but i said well you're going to

1765
01:09:00,470 --> 01:08:59,040
have to do your own research because i

1766
01:09:03,510 --> 01:09:00,480
don't know who you are

1767
01:09:04,829 --> 01:09:03,520
but but he he said this to me and i

1768
01:09:07,030 --> 01:09:04,839
thought how did

1769
01:09:07,910 --> 01:09:07,040
anybody get this out of the government

1770
01:09:10,229 --> 01:09:07,920
but

1771
01:09:11,829 --> 01:09:10,239
obviously there's some way they did

1772
01:09:14,550 --> 01:09:11,839
what gets me is

1773
01:09:16,470 --> 01:09:14,560
these people out there that write books

1774
01:09:18,630 --> 01:09:16,480
that have never been in the military

1775
01:09:21,110 --> 01:09:18,640
never been in the intelligence community

1776
01:09:22,789 --> 01:09:21,120
never had a security clearance

1777
01:09:25,189 --> 01:09:22,799
uh

1778
01:09:26,630 --> 01:09:25,199
and and they write a book

1779
01:09:29,189 --> 01:09:26,640
based on

1780
01:09:32,390 --> 01:09:29,199
second and third party information and

1781
01:09:34,630 --> 01:09:32,400
they're the gods of the ufo community

1782
01:09:36,950 --> 01:09:34,640
and somebody like myself or or there's

1783
01:09:39,189 --> 01:09:36,960
others that have actually done these

1784
01:09:41,829 --> 01:09:39,199
things and went out there and and

1785
01:09:44,630 --> 01:09:41,839
investigated you opposed they're treated

1786
01:09:47,510 --> 01:09:44,640
and treated us like dirt because they

1787
01:09:50,550 --> 01:09:47,520
say we're disinformation or you're still

1788
01:09:52,709 --> 01:09:50,560
working for the agency or you're still

1789
01:09:55,590 --> 01:09:52,719
you're still involved in and trying to

1790
01:09:57,350 --> 01:09:55,600
trick people which is not true and and

1791
01:09:59,910 --> 01:09:57,360
when i when i try to speak i try to

1792
01:10:02,630 --> 01:09:59,920
speak at a u.s ufo convention

1793
01:10:04,550 --> 01:10:02,640
some years ago and and the people

1794
01:10:06,630 --> 01:10:04,560
basically ridiculed me saying i don't

1795
01:10:08,630 --> 01:10:06,640
think they want to hear you why would

1796
01:10:10,790 --> 01:10:08,640
they want to hear me

1797
01:10:13,590 --> 01:10:10,800
i'm telling the truth i'm only telling

1798
01:10:15,270 --> 01:10:13,600
you i know i'm not going to

1799
01:10:17,350 --> 01:10:15,280
i'm not going to go and speculate on

1800
01:10:19,510 --> 01:10:17,360
things that i don't know or i've never

1801
01:10:20,470 --> 01:10:19,520
seen or never had access to

1802
01:10:26,870 --> 01:10:20,480
and

1803
01:10:29,830 --> 01:10:26,880
private room with some people

1804
01:10:31,669 --> 01:10:29,840
that that we talked talked over

1805
01:10:34,310 --> 01:10:31,679
primarily wendell stephens at the time

1806
01:10:36,470 --> 01:10:34,320
he was a very good friend of mine

1807
01:10:37,910 --> 01:10:36,480
yeah i really i always i always liked

1808
01:10:39,590 --> 01:10:37,920
wendell stevens and i always thought

1809
01:10:42,229 --> 01:10:39,600
that he was kind of a straight shooter

1810
01:10:45,110 --> 01:10:42,239
and he never suffered from that ufo

1811
01:10:46,870 --> 01:10:45,120
uh disease that i think so many guys do

1812
01:10:49,030 --> 01:10:46,880
when they're on that circuit you know

1813
01:10:50,229 --> 01:10:49,040
they come out with some good information

1814
01:10:51,910 --> 01:10:50,239
and then

1815
01:10:53,750 --> 01:10:51,920
i guess people get tired of hearing the

1816
01:10:56,070 --> 01:10:53,760
same lecture over and over again so then

1817
01:10:58,070 --> 01:10:56,080
they invent new stories and new things

1818
01:10:59,830 --> 01:10:58,080
but wendell stevens was always on the

1819
01:11:01,510 --> 01:10:59,840
ground looking into stuff i disagree

1820
01:11:03,669 --> 01:11:01,520
with him on billy meyer and a lot of

1821
01:11:07,590 --> 01:11:03,679
stuff that he was into but i think he

1822
01:11:10,149 --> 01:11:08,470
well

1823
01:11:11,750 --> 01:11:10,159
i was actually involved in doing

1824
01:11:13,990 --> 01:11:11,760
moderate case but in germany and i was

1825
01:11:15,590 --> 01:11:14,000
basing there really can you tell us can

1826
01:11:17,510 --> 01:11:15,600
you tell us about that because to be

1827
01:11:19,750 --> 01:11:17,520
quite honest with you i think that billy

1828
01:11:21,590 --> 01:11:19,760
meyer is just looking for some cash i

1829
01:11:23,110 --> 01:11:21,600
never thought any that some of the

1830
01:11:25,189 --> 01:11:23,120
photos were

1831
01:11:28,149 --> 01:11:25,199
like i could do better knowing a little

1832
01:11:29,590 --> 01:11:28,159
bit about special effects that i do and

1833
01:11:32,149 --> 01:11:29,600
so many things that he kind of got

1834
01:11:33,590 --> 01:11:32,159
caught in that were like suspect but

1835
01:11:35,430 --> 01:11:33,600
what did you think of the whole billy

1836
01:11:37,189 --> 01:11:35,440
meyer case and what was your involvement

1837
01:11:40,390 --> 01:11:37,199
in it

1838
01:11:42,630 --> 01:11:40,400
well we we were

1839
01:11:45,030 --> 01:11:42,640
the swiss intelligence service asked us

1840
01:11:47,110 --> 01:11:45,040
to assist them on evaluating some

1841
01:11:48,550 --> 01:11:47,120
information regarding the subject of the

1842
01:11:51,830 --> 01:11:48,560
office

1843
01:11:54,390 --> 01:11:51,840
so i was in germany at the time

1844
01:11:56,950 --> 01:11:54,400
myself and another agent was sent down

1845
01:11:58,149 --> 01:11:56,960
to switzerland we met with a swiss and

1846
01:12:01,110 --> 01:11:58,159
tough people

1847
01:12:02,390 --> 01:12:01,120
and they laid out billy myers stuff

1848
01:12:03,510 --> 01:12:02,400
and

1849
01:12:04,870 --> 01:12:03,520
uh

1850
01:12:06,550 --> 01:12:04,880
they said well

1851
01:12:08,630 --> 01:12:06,560
you know he claims that he's had

1852
01:12:11,270 --> 01:12:08,640
contacts he did

1853
01:12:13,270 --> 01:12:11,280
uh he took these pictures and

1854
01:12:15,189 --> 01:12:13,280
so we went out and talked we went on an

1855
01:12:17,189 --> 01:12:15,199
interview i i was a german linguist so i

1856
01:12:18,550 --> 01:12:17,199
could i could speak german i was trained

1857
01:12:21,189 --> 01:12:18,560
in german linguist

1858
01:12:23,350 --> 01:12:21,199
so we went out there and we we spoke to

1859
01:12:25,830 --> 01:12:23,360
him and we interviewed him to his

1860
01:12:26,630 --> 01:12:25,840
intelligence that and nobody did who we

1861
01:12:27,510 --> 01:12:26,640
were

1862
01:12:29,189 --> 01:12:27,520
although

1863
01:12:31,189 --> 01:12:29,199
what was your impression what was your

1864
01:12:32,709 --> 01:12:31,199
impression of him and and

1865
01:12:35,270 --> 01:12:32,719
whether he was being truthful or not

1866
01:12:39,189 --> 01:12:35,280
about what he was doing

1867
01:12:41,430 --> 01:12:39,199
if you sat down and listened to him talk

1868
01:12:44,310 --> 01:12:41,440
you would want to believe everything he

1869
01:12:46,310 --> 01:12:44,320
told you i mean he was he was a very

1870
01:12:48,709 --> 01:12:46,320
forthright person

1871
01:12:51,669 --> 01:12:48,719
he was very articulate

1872
01:12:54,070 --> 01:12:51,679
uh he was very believable i mean really

1873
01:12:56,470 --> 01:12:54,080
believable in fact when we

1874
01:12:59,830 --> 01:12:56,480
we didn't have that we our first meeting

1875
01:13:01,430 --> 01:12:59,840
was not at his house it was in town at a

1876
01:13:02,950 --> 01:13:01,440
at a little

1877
01:13:05,030 --> 01:13:02,960
and we had a little room in the back

1878
01:13:06,310 --> 01:13:05,040
that we were talking to them about and

1879
01:13:08,550 --> 01:13:06,320
and boy

1880
01:13:10,229 --> 01:13:08,560
when i left there i told the swiss guy

1881
01:13:12,310 --> 01:13:10,239
the intelligence guy

1882
01:13:15,189 --> 01:13:12,320
man this guy is you know he's good i

1883
01:13:16,830 --> 01:13:15,199
mean i'm anxious to see what he has

1884
01:13:19,270 --> 01:13:16,840
well we went out to his

1885
01:13:20,709 --> 01:13:19,280
farm and he started

1886
01:13:22,229 --> 01:13:20,719
explaining where he took off these

1887
01:13:30,149 --> 01:13:22,239
pictures

1888
01:13:31,189 --> 01:13:30,159
and i'm no photo interpreter or photo

1889
01:13:33,110 --> 01:13:31,199
expert

1890
01:13:34,630 --> 01:13:33,120
but the first couple pictures he showed

1891
01:13:37,510 --> 01:13:34,640
us

1892
01:13:39,350 --> 01:13:37,520
i looked at the my the two swiss

1893
01:13:40,310 --> 01:13:39,360
intelligence officer and the other guy i

1894
01:13:42,390 --> 01:13:40,320
was with

1895
01:13:43,990 --> 01:13:42,400
and i just took my hand like

1896
01:13:47,430 --> 01:13:44,000
these are fakes

1897
01:13:50,950 --> 01:13:47,440
there's no way these are real and and so

1898
01:13:53,430 --> 01:13:50,960
he showed us a lot he we went outside

1899
01:13:55,830 --> 01:13:53,440
he showed us whether each one was taken

1900
01:13:57,830 --> 01:13:55,840
he went up to that that hill and said

1901
01:13:59,510 --> 01:13:57,840
that's where the alien

1902
01:14:02,149 --> 01:13:59,520
told him to go off the top who with the

1903
01:14:04,149 --> 01:14:02,159
pleiadians and so forth and

1904
01:14:04,870 --> 01:14:04,159
everything fit

1905
01:14:08,790 --> 01:14:04,880
and

1906
01:14:11,270 --> 01:14:08,800
what i didn't actually found in swiss

1907
01:14:12,830 --> 01:14:11,280
people noticed it later

1908
01:14:16,790 --> 01:14:12,840
was he had he had

1909
01:14:18,950 --> 01:14:16,800
wires that ran across from one location

1910
01:14:21,990 --> 01:14:18,960
to another probably

1911
01:14:23,750 --> 01:14:22,000
two three hundred foot long wires

1912
01:14:25,110 --> 01:14:23,760
uh well that's kind of all different

1913
01:14:27,350 --> 01:14:25,120
directions that's kind of a dead

1914
01:14:29,270 --> 01:14:27,360
giveaway of a hoax and you know it's

1915
01:14:31,669 --> 01:14:29,280
funny because when i was like i don't

1916
01:14:33,669 --> 01:14:31,679
know in high school i i remember reading

1917
01:14:35,350 --> 01:14:33,679
so much about this case

1918
01:14:37,830 --> 01:14:35,360
and and i looked at the photographs and

1919
01:14:39,350 --> 01:14:37,840
i thought this is like a hubcap and i

1920
01:14:41,350 --> 01:14:39,360
could build a model the only thing that

1921
01:14:43,189 --> 01:14:41,360
ever made me gave me doubts is like how

1922
01:14:44,070 --> 01:14:43,199
does a one-armed man do some of the

1923
01:14:45,830 --> 01:14:44,080
stuff

1924
01:14:48,070 --> 01:14:45,840
you know but i would say that a

1925
01:14:50,070 --> 01:14:48,080
determined one-armed man could do it i

1926
01:14:50,870 --> 01:14:50,080
would think you know it looked to me

1927
01:14:55,910 --> 01:14:50,880
like

1928
01:14:57,830 --> 01:14:55,920
miniature models hung on wires and

1929
01:15:00,149 --> 01:14:57,840
there's a guy on youtube that that has

1930
01:15:01,510 --> 01:15:00,159
recreated almost every photo and film

1931
01:15:02,709 --> 01:15:01,520
that he's ever done

1932
01:15:05,350 --> 01:15:02,719
which leads me to believe that it's

1933
01:15:07,270 --> 01:15:05,360
totally fake but what were what what was

1934
01:15:09,669 --> 01:15:07,280
the end result of that investigation you

1935
01:15:14,790 --> 01:15:12,630
well we we found that uh the first thing

1936
01:15:16,790 --> 01:15:14,800
i asked billy was where are these what

1937
01:15:19,270 --> 01:15:16,800
are these wires for

1938
01:15:20,310 --> 01:15:19,280
he said well i was going to erect

1939
01:15:21,990 --> 01:15:20,320
something

1940
01:15:24,470 --> 01:15:22,000
because they're going from one point to

1941
01:15:27,830 --> 01:15:24,480
another with with no noticeable reason

1942
01:15:31,189 --> 01:15:27,840
to be there there's no reason why these

1943
01:15:33,669 --> 01:15:31,199
wires would be strung all over the place

1944
01:15:35,270 --> 01:15:33,679
he said he was going to build something

1945
01:15:37,430 --> 01:15:35,280
and but he left it at that he didn't go

1946
01:15:40,070 --> 01:15:37,440
into any details about

1947
01:15:43,590 --> 01:15:40,080
what he was going to build or anything

1948
01:15:45,430 --> 01:15:43,600
like that so that led me to believe

1949
01:15:47,669 --> 01:15:45,440
the guy was he

1950
01:15:49,910 --> 01:15:47,679
he hoaxed all this stuff

1951
01:15:51,910 --> 01:15:49,920
and then

1952
01:15:53,510 --> 01:15:51,920
the swiss had some information about

1953
01:15:56,470 --> 01:15:53,520
this other guy

1954
01:15:57,669 --> 01:15:56,480
uh that had that probably was an

1955
01:15:59,189 --> 01:15:57,679
accomplice

1956
01:16:00,870 --> 01:15:59,199
and we went

1957
01:16:03,110 --> 01:16:00,880
uh this other guy lived some distance

1958
01:16:05,350 --> 01:16:03,120
away probably you know 10 or 12

1959
01:16:07,669 --> 01:16:05,360
kilometers from

1960
01:16:09,830 --> 01:16:07,679
about six or seven miles away from where

1961
01:16:12,229 --> 01:16:09,840
billy lived and we went to this guy's

1962
01:16:15,189 --> 01:16:12,239
house and i don't remember his name

1963
01:16:16,950 --> 01:16:15,199
he was very elusive he was he was very

1964
01:16:19,590 --> 01:16:16,960
protective of billy

1965
01:16:22,390 --> 01:16:19,600
and but he was he was elusive about what

1966
01:16:23,510 --> 01:16:22,400
you know swiss asks you did you

1967
01:16:25,510 --> 01:16:23,520
did you ever

1968
01:16:27,270 --> 01:16:25,520
see these things did you well why what

1969
01:16:29,270 --> 01:16:27,280
do you want to know he asked more

1970
01:16:31,110 --> 01:16:29,280
questions thus we did him so we didn't

1971
01:16:33,110 --> 01:16:31,120
get a whole lot out of him but

1972
01:16:35,910 --> 01:16:33,120
we know who his confidence was i mean

1973
01:16:37,110 --> 01:16:35,920
swiss intelligence did all we did at the

1974
01:16:40,630 --> 01:16:37,120
end was

1975
01:16:42,550 --> 01:16:40,640
we did i did a report uh evaluating what

1976
01:16:44,709 --> 01:16:42,560
information that swiss intelligence

1977
01:16:46,550 --> 01:16:44,719
wanted us to evaluate

1978
01:16:48,390 --> 01:16:46,560
and that's basically it that was a

1979
01:16:50,709 --> 01:16:48,400
one-time shot

1980
01:16:53,189 --> 01:16:50,719
but did a report the only time that i

1981
01:16:55,990 --> 01:16:53,199
knew that we ever got involved now maybe

1982
01:16:57,750 --> 01:16:56,000
we did later that i don't know about but

1983
01:16:59,030 --> 01:16:57,760
that's my involvement with the

1984
01:17:00,630 --> 01:16:59,040
billionaire

1985
01:17:02,550 --> 01:17:00,640
incident

1986
01:17:04,390 --> 01:17:02,560
wow that's pretty incredible like i said

1987
01:17:05,910 --> 01:17:04,400
your name comes up in every story i've

1988
01:17:07,830 --> 01:17:05,920
never heard your story in connection

1989
01:17:10,470 --> 01:17:07,840
with billy meyer but that's another big

1990
01:17:13,270 --> 01:17:10,480
huge case in ufology that you've been a

1991
01:17:18,470 --> 01:17:16,870
well a very small part and and and so

1992
01:17:19,830 --> 01:17:18,480
but what was the end result what did you

1993
01:17:21,030 --> 01:17:19,840
tell the swiss did you tell the swiss

1994
01:17:23,590 --> 01:17:21,040
that you thought he was hoaxing these

1995
01:17:25,750 --> 01:17:23,600
things yeah yeah exactly

1996
01:17:28,070 --> 01:17:25,760
uh our our photo interp our photo

1997
01:17:30,229 --> 01:17:28,080
specialists back in headquarters

1998
01:17:33,430 --> 01:17:30,239
uh said that these are all hope these

1999
01:17:35,030 --> 01:17:33,440
are all fakes and then and our one uh

2000
01:17:36,709 --> 01:17:35,040
really keen

2001
01:17:40,149 --> 01:17:36,719
uh photo interpreter

2002
01:17:41,510 --> 01:17:40,159
uh who just in fact hates but he just

2003
01:17:43,430 --> 01:17:41,520
passed away a few

2004
01:17:45,590 --> 01:17:43,440
months ago but he was

2005
01:17:47,830 --> 01:17:45,600
he explained exactly how it was how he

2006
01:17:49,270 --> 01:17:47,840
did it and what kind of cameras and the

2007
01:17:51,430 --> 01:17:49,280
betting on the cameras and all that

2008
01:17:53,830 --> 01:17:51,440
stuff so that that's

2009
01:17:55,350 --> 01:17:53,840
that's what our report was which was it

2010
01:17:56,470 --> 01:17:55,360
was a hoax

2011
01:17:59,270 --> 01:17:56,480
wow

2012
01:18:01,510 --> 01:17:59,280
okay so getting back to this you're

2013
01:18:03,669 --> 01:18:01,520
always the bad guy and i hate to keep

2014
01:18:06,070 --> 01:18:03,679
bringing up stuff that people have said

2015
01:18:07,669 --> 01:18:06,080
or spread negative stories about you but

2016
01:18:11,110 --> 01:18:07,679
i couldn't complete this interview

2017
01:18:13,750 --> 01:18:11,120
without getting into the serpo story

2018
01:18:15,830 --> 01:18:13,760
now you've also been blamed for

2019
01:18:17,030 --> 01:18:15,840
spreading the serpo story

2020
01:18:19,030 --> 01:18:17,040
and i have to tell you that everything

2021
01:18:20,709 --> 01:18:19,040
you told me so far i truly believe

2022
01:18:23,350 --> 01:18:20,719
you've been truthful about

2023
01:18:24,630 --> 01:18:23,360
but a couple of researchers have shown

2024
01:18:26,390 --> 01:18:24,640
one second

2025
01:18:27,990 --> 01:18:26,400
a couple of researchers have shown that

2026
01:18:29,350 --> 01:18:28,000
the files

2027
01:18:31,830 --> 01:18:29,360
that were sent

2028
01:18:34,070 --> 01:18:31,840
to this serpo person who

2029
01:18:35,990 --> 01:18:34,080
who spread all this information

2030
01:18:39,350 --> 01:18:36,000
were sent

2031
01:18:41,189 --> 01:18:39,360
through you because of ip matching

2032
01:18:44,310 --> 01:18:41,199
but i have to tell you that i went to

2033
01:18:46,310 --> 01:18:44,320
college for computer science so i

2034
01:18:49,910 --> 01:18:46,320
was very interested in the information

2035
01:18:52,229 --> 01:18:49,920
that they had and i looked at all of it

2036
01:18:55,270 --> 01:18:52,239
and what it showed is that

2037
01:18:57,830 --> 01:18:55,280
your ip number commented or talked you

2038
01:18:58,870 --> 01:18:57,840
know sent people emails as you richard

2039
01:19:01,990 --> 01:18:58,880
doty

2040
01:19:02,870 --> 01:19:02,000
but then your ip number also

2041
01:19:04,950 --> 01:19:02,880
sent

2042
01:19:06,830 --> 01:19:04,960
these serpo files

2043
01:19:08,390 --> 01:19:06,840
to this person

2044
01:19:11,510 --> 01:19:08,400
again

2045
01:19:13,270 --> 01:19:11,520
it was with your ip number

2046
01:19:14,870 --> 01:19:13,280
i've never known what to believe about

2047
01:19:17,270 --> 01:19:14,880
this so i just want to ask you straight

2048
01:19:19,590 --> 01:19:17,280
out did you create

2049
01:19:22,870 --> 01:19:19,600
send or have anything to do with this

2050
01:19:23,990 --> 01:19:22,880
serpo ufo story

2051
01:19:26,790 --> 01:19:24,000
no

2052
01:19:28,229 --> 01:19:26,800
and can is there any angler

2053
01:19:30,470 --> 01:19:28,239
i learned

2054
01:19:32,950 --> 01:19:30,480
of this

2055
01:19:35,669 --> 01:19:32,960
from victor martinez he was the one that

2056
01:19:37,750 --> 01:19:35,679
that first sent this stuff out victor

2057
01:19:40,870 --> 01:19:37,760
martinez and a

2058
01:19:42,070 --> 01:19:40,880
and a joe yeager those are the two key

2059
01:19:45,110 --> 01:19:42,080
names

2060
01:19:48,070 --> 01:19:45,120
in the circle

2061
01:19:52,070 --> 01:19:50,470
victor martinez shared a lot of

2062
01:19:53,990 --> 01:19:52,080
information with me

2063
01:19:57,270 --> 01:19:54,000
and with some other people

2064
01:19:58,709 --> 01:19:57,280
who were involved in the uh

2065
01:19:59,430 --> 01:19:58,719
in the uh

2066
01:20:01,990 --> 01:19:59,440
or

2067
01:20:04,790 --> 01:20:02,000
who were retired from the uh from the

2068
01:20:06,629 --> 01:20:04,800
intelligence of bia in particular

2069
01:20:08,229 --> 01:20:06,639
and

2070
01:20:09,510 --> 01:20:08,239
so

2071
01:20:10,629 --> 01:20:09,520
i had

2072
01:20:23,350 --> 01:20:10,639
i

2073
01:20:24,870 --> 01:20:23,360
but

2074
01:20:28,709 --> 01:20:24,880
i did not

2075
01:20:32,870 --> 01:20:28,719
at no way have i ever wrote or provided

2076
01:20:35,910 --> 01:20:32,880
or falsified or created this circle

2077
01:20:37,270 --> 01:20:35,920
story now i wish i would have

2078
01:20:39,910 --> 01:20:37,280
somebody

2079
01:20:42,950 --> 01:20:39,920
now if you ever read all that stuff

2080
01:20:44,709 --> 01:20:42,960
somebody would have been oh mr dodie

2081
01:20:45,910 --> 01:20:44,719
i've been writer i've read all of it and

2082
01:20:48,709 --> 01:20:45,920
that's what i was just going to say

2083
01:20:50,790 --> 01:20:48,719
whoever if the if those if if that whole

2084
01:20:52,470 --> 01:20:50,800
story is fake which honestly i would

2085
01:20:53,510 --> 01:20:52,480
tend to believe it's fake just based on

2086
01:20:55,030 --> 01:20:53,520
the fact

2087
01:20:56,550 --> 01:20:55,040
and for my listeners that don't know

2088
01:20:59,990 --> 01:20:56,560
about the serpo story if you don't know

2089
01:21:01,430 --> 01:21:00,000
about it just google serpo ufo or serpo

2090
01:21:03,750 --> 01:21:01,440
alien exchange

2091
01:21:05,990 --> 01:21:03,760
the story is basically

2092
01:21:08,310 --> 01:21:06,000
close encounters of the third kind

2093
01:21:09,990 --> 01:21:08,320
that these aliens came here they left

2094
01:21:12,470 --> 01:21:10,000
some of their people they took some of

2095
01:21:15,350 --> 01:21:12,480
our people and took them to their home

2096
01:21:17,110 --> 01:21:15,360
planet they spent some time there many

2097
01:21:19,350 --> 01:21:17,120
years and then came back later some of

2098
01:21:22,550 --> 01:21:19,360
them died there but it's just like

2099
01:21:25,030 --> 01:21:22,560
this thing reads like better than a good

2100
01:21:27,430 --> 01:21:25,040
science fiction novel if it's fake

2101
01:21:30,390 --> 01:21:27,440
whoever wrote it i think they should get

2102
01:21:32,070 --> 01:21:30,400
a prize it's so well written but i've

2103
01:21:34,229 --> 01:21:32,080
always thought exactly i've always

2104
01:21:36,790 --> 01:21:34,239
thought this this is kind of too far out

2105
01:21:39,510 --> 01:21:36,800
there they don't name names so there's

2106
01:21:41,430 --> 01:21:39,520
no way to verify or

2107
01:21:43,350 --> 01:21:41,440
there's no way to prove or disprove

2108
01:21:45,110 --> 01:21:43,360
anything in the serpo files and i've

2109
01:21:47,030 --> 01:21:45,120
been through all of them

2110
01:21:49,750 --> 01:21:47,040
and i can't prove or disprove anything

2111
01:21:52,229 --> 01:21:49,760
because they don't give names of people

2112
01:21:54,470 --> 01:21:52,239
and it's convenient that this story came

2113
01:21:56,950 --> 01:21:54,480
out after the last astronaut that

2114
01:21:59,430 --> 01:21:56,960
supposedly went to this alien planet in

2115
01:22:00,629 --> 01:21:59,440
this exchange program died so you can't

2116
01:22:02,229 --> 01:22:00,639
interview any of the guys that

2117
01:22:03,590 --> 01:22:02,239
supposedly went there

2118
01:22:06,229 --> 01:22:03,600
it's one of those things that can't be

2119
01:22:09,110 --> 01:22:06,239
proven or disproven but whoever wrote it

2120
01:22:11,189 --> 01:22:09,120
if somebody wrote it it's a tremendous

2121
01:22:13,430 --> 01:22:11,199
tremendous entertaining story but it

2122
01:22:15,189 --> 01:22:13,440
just seemed to me like this is too much

2123
01:22:17,430 --> 01:22:15,199
like copied directly from close

2124
01:22:19,510 --> 01:22:17,440
encounters of the third kind

2125
01:22:20,310 --> 01:22:19,520
but what i always wanted to ask you then

2126
01:22:23,910 --> 01:22:20,320
is

2127
01:22:26,149 --> 01:22:23,920
information that are claiming that you

2128
01:22:27,510 --> 01:22:26,159
sent it i mean there's a subject i'll

2129
01:22:29,910 --> 01:22:27,520
tell you what there's a such thing

2130
01:22:32,790 --> 01:22:29,920
called ip spoofing which means

2131
01:22:35,669 --> 01:22:32,800
mr doty if i wanted to fool somebody

2132
01:22:36,870 --> 01:22:35,679
that i was you sending an email i i

2133
01:22:38,310 --> 01:22:36,880
could do it but it would take somebody

2134
01:22:40,790 --> 01:22:38,320
tremendously knowledgeable about

2135
01:22:43,030 --> 01:22:40,800
computer science or the internet to do

2136
01:22:43,910 --> 01:22:43,040
it especially back then because back

2137
01:22:45,510 --> 01:22:43,920
then

2138
01:22:49,030 --> 01:22:45,520
there wasn't things that we have now

2139
01:22:50,550 --> 01:22:49,040
like ip hide or you know or those things

2140
01:22:53,350 --> 01:22:50,560
so

2141
01:22:54,950 --> 01:22:53,360
i have to tell you i i'm not sure that i

2142
01:22:57,030 --> 01:22:54,960
believe or disbelieve you that you

2143
01:22:57,830 --> 01:22:57,040
didn't send them from your home

2144
01:22:59,830 --> 01:22:57,840
but

2145
01:23:01,510 --> 01:22:59,840
it appears from the documents that i've

2146
01:23:03,350 --> 01:23:01,520
looked at and all of the computer

2147
01:23:05,669 --> 01:23:03,360
information that it was sent from your

2148
01:23:07,189 --> 01:23:05,679
home now that doesn't mean that it was

2149
01:23:09,590 --> 01:23:07,199
it means that

2150
01:23:11,110 --> 01:23:09,600
either it was or somebody made it appear

2151
01:23:13,669 --> 01:23:11,120
that it was

2152
01:23:15,510 --> 01:23:13,679
what do you have to say about that

2153
01:23:17,030 --> 01:23:15,520
why would somebody appear that you said

2154
01:23:19,669 --> 01:23:17,040
i tell you

2155
01:23:27,030 --> 01:23:25,030
it i can i can i can send an a a a email

2156
01:23:30,149 --> 01:23:27,040
even back then and that was back in that

2157
01:23:31,030 --> 01:23:30,159
was just it was just uh what 15 year old

2158
01:23:34,629 --> 01:23:31,040
10

2159
01:23:36,229 --> 01:23:34,639
was it 2005 something like 13 years ago

2160
01:23:39,270 --> 01:23:36,239
yeah something like

2161
01:23:41,030 --> 01:23:39,280
13 or 12 years ago

2162
01:23:43,110 --> 01:23:41,040
you can you could

2163
01:23:43,990 --> 01:23:43,120
dope uh you can uh

2164
01:23:46,470 --> 01:23:44,000
spook

2165
01:23:48,149 --> 01:23:46,480
an ip address back then

2166
01:23:51,830 --> 01:23:48,159
because what you're looking at is you're

2167
01:23:54,870 --> 01:23:51,840
looking at the actual uh just the email

2168
01:23:56,709 --> 01:23:54,880
printout of that to email from one one

2169
01:23:59,590 --> 01:23:56,719
place to another yeah the email header

2170
01:24:05,350 --> 01:24:01,110
somebody

2171
01:24:07,990 --> 01:24:05,360
said you gotta nail him on this because

2172
01:24:10,790 --> 01:24:08,000
this is 100 accurate information my

2173
01:24:12,310 --> 01:24:10,800
point was that i could spoof that i

2174
01:24:15,510 --> 01:24:12,320
could think that

2175
01:24:17,030 --> 01:24:15,520
that that he's sending emails anywhere i

2176
01:24:19,830 --> 01:24:17,040
could be richard dodie right now and

2177
01:24:22,070 --> 01:24:19,840
send an email to whoever i want

2178
01:24:24,470 --> 01:24:22,080
under his ip as long as i had an email

2179
01:24:26,950 --> 01:24:24,480
from i would need an email from you that

2180
01:24:28,870 --> 01:24:26,960
it was verified from you and by the way

2181
01:24:31,189 --> 01:24:28,880
i do have that just talking about our

2182
01:24:32,950 --> 01:24:31,199
show and scheduling the show so i could

2183
01:24:34,629 --> 01:24:32,960
do it somebody very knowledgeable and

2184
01:24:36,229 --> 01:24:34,639
computers could do it and i've also

2185
01:24:38,310 --> 01:24:36,239
heard that you are tremendously

2186
01:24:40,950 --> 01:24:38,320
technical and not giving credit for that

2187
01:24:43,590 --> 01:24:40,960
you're supposed to be a really tech whiz

2188
01:24:45,189 --> 01:24:43,600
guy especially no offense for being uh

2189
01:24:47,110 --> 01:24:45,199
you know shall we say a little more

2190
01:24:48,790 --> 01:24:47,120
veteran than some people that are good

2191
01:24:50,310 --> 01:24:48,800
with computers

2192
01:24:52,229 --> 01:24:50,320
so i don't know what to think about this

2193
01:24:53,910 --> 01:24:52,239
ip information that i wanted to ask you

2194
01:24:55,350 --> 01:24:53,920
about right

2195
01:24:57,990 --> 01:24:55,360
well you can believe what you want to

2196
01:24:59,189 --> 01:24:58,000
but i i actually try to file a lawsuit i

2197
01:25:04,550 --> 01:24:59,199
reported

2198
01:25:06,870 --> 01:25:04,560
that was doing that to me that was uh

2199
01:25:07,990 --> 01:25:06,880
and i've gotten an email from a person

2200
01:25:09,910 --> 01:25:08,000
saying

2201
01:25:11,910 --> 01:25:09,920
you're sending these out to people which

2202
01:25:13,750 --> 01:25:11,920
i didn't i wasn't sending anything out

2203
01:25:14,950 --> 01:25:13,760
and this was not it had nothing to do

2204
01:25:16,550 --> 01:25:14,960
with circle

2205
01:25:19,110 --> 01:25:16,560
it had something to do with ufos but not

2206
01:25:20,790 --> 01:25:19,120
circle and i and and i challenged him

2207
01:25:22,229 --> 01:25:20,800
about it and we got into a pissing

2208
01:25:24,390 --> 01:25:22,239
contest over

2209
01:25:26,790 --> 01:25:24,400
during email and finally

2210
01:25:28,790 --> 01:25:26,800
i just said you know what i worked at

2211
01:25:30,709 --> 01:25:28,800
the time i was working on a federal task

2212
01:25:32,550 --> 01:25:30,719
force and i said you know what yeah i'm

2213
01:25:34,709 --> 01:25:32,560
going to turn this over to the fbi but

2214
01:25:36,629 --> 01:25:34,719
can i investigate it and he did they

2215
01:25:38,470 --> 01:25:36,639
investigated this guy they never

2216
01:25:40,790 --> 01:25:38,480
prosecuted the guy because the guy was

2217
01:25:43,189 --> 01:25:40,800
he was hoaxing stuff not just with me

2218
01:25:45,750 --> 01:25:43,199
but with a lot of other people

2219
01:25:47,270 --> 01:25:45,760
and he stopped it and they basically

2220
01:25:48,950 --> 01:25:47,280
took his computer away from him or took

2221
01:25:49,830 --> 01:25:48,960
his hard drive away from me

2222
01:25:52,870 --> 01:25:49,840
but

2223
01:25:54,390 --> 01:25:52,880
uh he was he was starting and i know

2224
01:25:57,270 --> 01:25:54,400
he's the one

2225
01:25:59,830 --> 01:25:57,280
that spent these emails out saying hey

2226
01:26:01,590 --> 01:25:59,840
this cody's a smoking gun here's his ip

2227
01:26:04,629 --> 01:26:01,600
address and that's a bunch of crap

2228
01:26:06,070 --> 01:26:04,639
because i can send anybody can send even

2229
01:26:09,270 --> 01:26:06,080
back then

2230
01:26:11,430 --> 01:26:09,280
an email make up an email spook it

2231
01:26:14,070 --> 01:26:11,440
to make it come from you or from your

2232
01:26:16,550 --> 01:26:14,080
grandmother or whoever you have on on

2233
01:26:18,950 --> 01:26:16,560
your email list so

2234
01:26:21,189 --> 01:26:18,960
that that isn't it's not even admissible

2235
01:26:25,990 --> 01:26:21,199
in court i found out too

2236
01:26:28,550 --> 01:26:26,000
so i didn't send it i i sent things to

2237
01:26:30,310 --> 01:26:28,560
victor martinez victor martinez sent it

2238
01:26:32,310 --> 01:26:30,320
out to other people that's how they they

2239
01:26:35,030 --> 01:26:32,320
got my ip address

2240
01:26:36,629 --> 01:26:35,040
and i tell you back in the early 90s

2241
01:26:38,310 --> 01:26:36,639
that i'll miss it

2242
01:26:40,229 --> 01:26:38,320
uh that

2243
01:26:42,310 --> 01:26:40,239
when when the computers just came out

2244
01:26:43,270 --> 01:26:42,320
internet just came out internet what was

2245
01:26:45,110 --> 01:26:43,280
was

2246
01:26:46,870 --> 01:26:45,120
the most unsecure and

2247
01:26:47,910 --> 01:26:46,880
insecure and unsecure

2248
01:26:49,510 --> 01:26:47,920
uh

2249
01:26:51,830 --> 01:26:49,520
system around

2250
01:26:54,390 --> 01:26:51,840
uh some would say it still

2251
01:26:56,790 --> 01:26:54,400
i was a hacker i could hack into things

2252
01:26:57,510 --> 01:26:56,800
i was pretty technical back then i mean

2253
01:27:17,750 --> 01:26:57,520
i

2254
01:27:19,189 --> 01:27:17,760
but was bought by another company and

2255
01:27:21,350 --> 01:27:19,199
they're making millions and millions of

2256
01:27:23,590 --> 01:27:21,360
dollars on it today which we should have

2257
01:27:25,750 --> 01:27:23,600
been doing that's another story but and

2258
01:27:28,229 --> 01:27:25,760
i wrote the encryption for it i wrote

2259
01:27:30,870 --> 01:27:28,239
the actual algorithms for it for that

2260
01:27:32,709 --> 01:27:30,880
particular program that it's a it was a

2261
01:27:34,310 --> 01:27:32,719
very secure system

2262
01:27:37,669 --> 01:27:34,320
for emails

2263
01:27:40,149 --> 01:27:37,679
that that somebody else has now but but

2264
01:27:40,870 --> 01:27:40,159
i am technically and if somebody gives

2265
01:27:42,390 --> 01:27:40,880
me

2266
01:27:44,709 --> 01:27:42,400
and another thing you're saying that

2267
01:27:48,229 --> 01:27:44,719
okay you're you went to college for

2268
01:27:49,750 --> 01:27:48,239
computer science okay all right if if

2269
01:27:51,830 --> 01:27:49,760
you look at

2270
01:27:54,070 --> 01:27:51,840
a computer

2271
01:27:56,550 --> 01:27:54,080
and you look at the ip address it's in a

2272
01:27:59,110 --> 01:27:56,560
computer there's another there's other

2273
01:28:01,110 --> 01:27:59,120
signatures it's located in a computer

2274
01:28:03,270 --> 01:28:01,120
when you send something out that's

2275
01:28:05,270 --> 01:28:03,280
different from the ip address

2276
01:28:07,510 --> 01:28:05,280
yeah i'm more aware of that but in this

2277
01:28:08,870 --> 01:28:07,520
case everything matched to you but that

2278
01:28:11,270 --> 01:28:08,880
led me to believe that somebody could

2279
01:28:13,510 --> 01:28:11,280
have spoofed it i i know that i could

2280
01:28:15,910 --> 01:28:13,520
have spoofed it so i'm not saying

2281
01:28:18,149 --> 01:28:15,920
that i believe that you sent that i'm

2282
01:28:20,229 --> 01:28:18,159
saying either you sent it or somebody

2283
01:28:21,350 --> 01:28:20,239
spoofed it to make it appear that you

2284
01:28:24,070 --> 01:28:21,360
sent it

2285
01:28:26,550 --> 01:28:24,080
and and again we keep coming back to

2286
01:28:27,750 --> 01:28:26,560
richard dodie is the bad guy of ufology

2287
01:28:29,430 --> 01:28:27,760
somehow

2288
01:28:31,750 --> 01:28:29,440
i i don't know that that shouldn't be a

2289
01:28:34,629 --> 01:28:31,760
badge of honor for you but that's just

2290
01:28:36,790 --> 01:28:34,639
the way your kind of reputation is so i

2291
01:28:38,229 --> 01:28:36,800
kind of thought maybe somebody who

2292
01:28:40,149 --> 01:28:38,239
created this

2293
01:28:43,189 --> 01:28:40,159
sent it out wanting it to come back to

2294
01:28:45,590 --> 01:28:43,199
you kind of like the mj12 documents

2295
01:28:46,629 --> 01:28:45,600
previously came back to you kind of like

2296
01:28:48,950 --> 01:28:46,639
all this

2297
01:28:51,430 --> 01:28:48,960
you're the bad guy in the benowitz case

2298
01:28:53,030 --> 01:28:51,440
sort of came back to you you seem to be

2299
01:28:56,790 --> 01:28:53,040
the convenient scapegoat that people

2300
01:28:58,550 --> 01:28:56,800
want to use to blame for things

2301
01:29:01,110 --> 01:28:58,560
yeah my name's out there and they want

2302
01:29:03,910 --> 01:29:01,120
to want to blame me for things that i

2303
01:29:06,149 --> 01:29:03,920
had absolutely nothing to do with

2304
01:29:09,110 --> 01:29:06,159
and they did get me a couple

2305
01:29:10,709 --> 01:29:09,120
fbi investigations and

2306
01:29:12,550 --> 01:29:10,719
polygraphs but

2307
01:29:14,390 --> 01:29:12,560
i was cleared of everything i was never

2308
01:29:16,470 --> 01:29:14,400
prosecuted i've never been accused of a

2309
01:29:18,390 --> 01:29:16,480
crime i wish

2310
01:29:20,709 --> 01:29:18,400
i wish i was as smart as some of the

2311
01:29:22,470 --> 01:29:20,719
people out there think i am and i wish i

2312
01:29:24,629 --> 01:29:22,480
would have done the cheerful document

2313
01:29:27,669 --> 01:29:24,639
because i'd be making i would have wrote

2314
01:29:30,310 --> 01:29:27,679
a science fiction book and made made

2315
01:29:31,430 --> 01:29:30,320
money on it and and if i if i had

2316
01:29:33,910 --> 01:29:31,440
written it

2317
01:29:35,990 --> 01:29:33,920
somebody that wrote that all that circle

2318
01:29:36,950 --> 01:29:36,000
stuff had to have been

2319
01:29:39,990 --> 01:29:36,960
either

2320
01:29:43,030 --> 01:29:40,000
uh in the government is actual factual

2321
01:29:45,030 --> 01:29:43,040
information or a science fiction right

2322
01:29:47,270 --> 01:29:45,040
well that that leads me to another

2323
01:29:48,950 --> 01:29:47,280
question that i have on the serpo case a

2324
01:29:49,990 --> 01:29:48,960
lot of people

2325
01:29:52,629 --> 01:29:50,000
claimed

2326
01:29:54,550 --> 01:29:52,639
that another thing that contributed or

2327
01:29:57,350 --> 01:29:54,560
another thing that pointed to you being

2328
01:29:59,110 --> 01:29:57,360
the originator of the serpo case is that

2329
01:30:01,110 --> 01:29:59,120
when that was making the rounds in the

2330
01:30:01,910 --> 01:30:01,120
ufo community

2331
01:30:04,629 --> 01:30:01,920
and

2332
01:30:07,270 --> 01:30:04,639
people were doing lectures on the serpo

2333
01:30:09,430 --> 01:30:07,280
thing you were you were in the audience

2334
01:30:10,950 --> 01:30:09,440
and somehow people thought because you

2335
01:30:12,550 --> 01:30:10,960
were in the audience you were sitting

2336
01:30:14,950 --> 01:30:12,560
back and laughing

2337
01:30:17,510 --> 01:30:14,960
going i put this out and now people are

2338
01:30:18,550 --> 01:30:17,520
lecturing on it or something like that

2339
01:30:21,270 --> 01:30:18,560
first

2340
01:30:23,669 --> 01:30:21,280
what do you think of of this serpo case

2341
01:30:26,870 --> 01:30:23,679
is it a fraud is there real information

2342
01:30:30,790 --> 01:30:26,880
in that or is it a total fictional story

2343
01:30:34,950 --> 01:30:33,270
well and why the interest why did you

2344
01:30:37,590 --> 01:30:34,960
have such an intense interest even in

2345
01:30:39,030 --> 01:30:37,600
the film this famous film mirage men

2346
01:30:40,629 --> 01:30:39,040
which you're in which i think is one of

2347
01:30:41,510 --> 01:30:40,639
the best films

2348
01:30:43,030 --> 01:30:41,520
ever

2349
01:30:44,709 --> 01:30:43,040
people should go see it

2350
01:30:46,229 --> 01:30:44,719
you're you're in the audience while

2351
01:30:48,470 --> 01:30:46,239
they're lecturing on this and people

2352
01:30:50,149 --> 01:30:48,480
have said well why why why does he have

2353
01:30:55,510 --> 01:30:50,159
this intense interest in this if he's

2354
01:30:59,430 --> 01:30:57,110
well

2355
01:31:01,669 --> 01:30:59,440
i was i happened to be i go to the ufo

2356
01:31:04,390 --> 01:31:01,679
conventions all the ufo most of them

2357
01:31:06,790 --> 01:31:04,400
i've missed a few but i i go to the ufo

2358
01:31:09,750 --> 01:31:06,800
conventions and that year

2359
01:31:11,189 --> 01:31:09,760
uh we went there i went there

2360
01:31:13,270 --> 01:31:11,199
people are going to say for the circle

2361
01:31:15,430 --> 01:31:13,280
story but actually was for something

2362
01:31:19,430 --> 01:31:15,440
entirely different that wendell stephens

2363
01:31:21,910 --> 01:31:19,440
had he had a very highly classified

2364
01:31:23,830 --> 01:31:21,920
uh file that he had gotten from somebody

2365
01:31:25,910 --> 01:31:23,840
he wouldn't tell us where and we met in

2366
01:31:27,510 --> 01:31:25,920
his room that way he there was a but

2367
01:31:29,830 --> 01:31:27,520
there's several of us there was about 11

2368
01:31:32,149 --> 01:31:29,840
of us that met in the room and he showed

2369
01:31:34,470 --> 01:31:32,159
us this and he showed us a film

2370
01:31:36,310 --> 01:31:34,480
and that was i mean it's something

2371
01:31:37,430 --> 01:31:36,320
that's never been disclosed and probably

2372
01:31:39,350 --> 01:31:37,440
won't be

2373
01:31:40,950 --> 01:31:39,360
but and i've always wondered whatever

2374
01:31:42,709 --> 01:31:40,960
happened to the film whatever happened

2375
01:31:43,830 --> 01:31:42,719
all the information that wendell had but

2376
01:31:45,669 --> 01:31:43,840
anyways

2377
01:31:47,990 --> 01:31:45,679
then that's why i was there that's why i

2378
01:31:49,990 --> 01:31:48,000
was there for that ufo convention i

2379
01:31:51,110 --> 01:31:50,000
think it was 2006. i think i think it

2380
01:31:55,430 --> 01:31:51,120
was

2381
01:31:57,430 --> 01:31:55,440
2006.

2382
01:31:59,669 --> 01:31:57,440
and there were dia people there too what

2383
01:32:02,470 --> 01:31:59,679
what people don't explain to me i was

2384
01:32:03,590 --> 01:32:02,480
sitting next to a couple dia people

2385
01:32:05,990 --> 01:32:03,600
people

2386
01:32:06,950 --> 01:32:06,000
what were really in dia i mean they were

2387
01:32:09,430 --> 01:32:06,960
active

2388
01:32:10,629 --> 01:32:09,440
in dia and they were interested in the

2389
01:32:14,390 --> 01:32:10,639
story

2390
01:32:17,669 --> 01:32:14,400
now as far as whether it's real or not

2391
01:32:19,910 --> 01:32:17,679
there there are as i was told now i

2392
01:32:22,149 --> 01:32:19,920
don't know anything firsthand about it

2393
01:32:24,149 --> 01:32:22,159
but as i was told

2394
01:32:26,310 --> 01:32:24,159
there are

2395
01:32:28,149 --> 01:32:26,320
aspects to the circle story that's

2396
01:32:30,229 --> 01:32:28,159
absolutely real

2397
01:32:32,310 --> 01:32:30,239
and there's a lot to it that is

2398
01:32:34,470 --> 01:32:32,320
absolutely false

2399
01:32:37,350 --> 01:32:34,480
the problem here sorting out what's

2400
01:32:38,229 --> 01:32:37,360
really true and what's fall

2401
01:32:41,510 --> 01:32:38,239
and

2402
01:32:43,030 --> 01:32:41,520
one of the things that we did as

2403
01:32:45,030 --> 01:32:43,040
when we meet as a

2404
01:32:45,750 --> 01:32:45,040
retired intelligence officer association

2405
01:32:48,950 --> 01:32:45,760
is

2406
01:32:50,390 --> 01:32:48,960
in our little group within a subgroup

2407
01:32:55,750 --> 01:32:50,400
we

2408
01:32:57,030 --> 01:32:55,760
was what really happened

2409
01:32:59,990 --> 01:32:57,040
and what

2410
01:33:01,990 --> 01:33:00,000
what didn't i mean what what the the the

2411
01:33:03,830 --> 01:33:02,000
the false part of it was

2412
01:33:04,790 --> 01:33:03,840
and i'm not ready to discuss that yet

2413
01:33:06,310 --> 01:33:04,800
because

2414
01:33:07,669 --> 01:33:06,320
we're still

2415
01:33:08,709 --> 01:33:07,679
investigating it

2416
01:33:10,709 --> 01:33:08,719
but

2417
01:33:13,270 --> 01:33:10,719
one of the people that was involved in

2418
01:33:14,550 --> 01:33:13,280
this program is still alive

2419
01:33:16,470 --> 01:33:14,560
we found him

2420
01:33:18,950 --> 01:33:16,480
and i didn't find him but some some

2421
01:33:21,189 --> 01:33:18,960
people within a group found him

2422
01:33:24,070 --> 01:33:21,199
and interviewed him and this is just

2423
01:33:25,510 --> 01:33:24,080
recently it was well in january

2424
01:33:27,350 --> 01:33:25,520
so

2425
01:33:30,470 --> 01:33:27,360
there are i think

2426
01:33:32,790 --> 01:33:30,480
parts of this story that may be real

2427
01:33:33,750 --> 01:33:32,800
i mean and and probably a small part of

2428
01:33:36,790 --> 01:33:33,760
it

2429
01:33:41,110 --> 01:33:36,800
but not not the entire story i mean i

2430
01:33:43,750 --> 01:33:41,120
when when i when i first read this stuff

2431
01:33:46,950 --> 01:33:43,760
i told victor martinez joe yeager and

2432
01:33:49,350 --> 01:33:46,960
some of the other guys carl dale who was

2433
01:33:50,709 --> 01:33:49,360
intimate he carl dale still

2434
01:33:52,070 --> 01:33:50,719
well he doesn't anymore but he worked

2435
01:33:54,870 --> 01:33:52,080
for dia

2436
01:33:56,870 --> 01:33:54,880
and i i i flatly told him i said this

2437
01:33:59,350 --> 01:33:56,880
this is like a science fiction

2438
01:34:01,030 --> 01:33:59,360
uh book i mean this is this isn't real

2439
01:34:02,950 --> 01:34:01,040
that's me i know that's right

2440
01:34:04,870 --> 01:34:02,960
i thought it was a great story but i

2441
01:34:06,550 --> 01:34:04,880
didn't think that there was much to it

2442
01:34:08,790 --> 01:34:06,560
but you're saying that you've you've

2443
01:34:10,470 --> 01:34:08,800
been looking into it and there may be

2444
01:34:13,189 --> 01:34:10,480
something to this so i guess i gotta

2445
01:34:15,430 --> 01:34:13,199
keep it in my gray basket

2446
01:34:17,750 --> 01:34:15,440
oh there's and there's other people i

2447
01:34:20,070 --> 01:34:17,760
mean i know linda howell

2448
01:34:21,910 --> 01:34:20,080
presented something that had some

2449
01:34:24,709 --> 01:34:21,920
legitimacy to it

2450
01:34:26,790 --> 01:34:24,719
about this subject some years ago

2451
01:34:27,990 --> 01:34:26,800
and i think it was uh two or three years

2452
01:34:31,110 --> 01:34:28,000
afterwards

2453
01:34:34,629 --> 01:34:31,120
that we kind of

2454
01:34:35,430 --> 01:34:34,639
uh it kicked us off to doing something

2455
01:34:38,310 --> 01:34:35,440
uh

2456
01:34:41,109 --> 01:34:38,320
in line with what she had done to see if

2457
01:34:43,350 --> 01:34:41,119
we could trace it back to something

2458
01:34:45,510 --> 01:34:43,360
and we did in fact

2459
01:34:47,030 --> 01:34:45,520
we have documents

2460
01:34:48,550 --> 01:34:47,040
just telling a little bit we have

2461
01:34:50,790 --> 01:34:48,560
documents

2462
01:34:52,629 --> 01:34:50,800
and i and we didn't get up to foia we

2463
01:34:55,590 --> 01:34:52,639
got it through another source

2464
01:34:57,350 --> 01:34:55,600
that showed that there were people

2465
01:34:59,189 --> 01:34:57,360
confined at the united states this

2466
01:35:01,270 --> 01:34:59,199
married barracks of fort leavenworth

2467
01:35:03,430 --> 01:35:01,280
that weren't inmates but they were

2468
01:35:04,709 --> 01:35:03,440
intelligence officers and they were

2469
01:35:05,830 --> 01:35:04,719
confined

2470
01:35:09,109 --> 01:35:05,840
there

2471
01:35:10,070 --> 01:35:09,119
for a special assignment

2472
01:35:12,310 --> 01:35:10,080
so

2473
01:35:17,030 --> 01:35:12,320
who were they it didn't give a number of

2474
01:35:21,750 --> 01:35:19,270
unless you have to i would think

2475
01:35:23,350 --> 01:35:21,760
no exactly exactly yeah exactly i mean

2476
01:35:25,669 --> 01:35:23,360
i've never been there but yeah i can

2477
01:35:26,629 --> 01:35:25,679
imagine it's not a nice place to live

2478
01:35:30,709 --> 01:35:26,639
and

2479
01:35:31,750 --> 01:35:30,719
him but

2480
01:35:33,910 --> 01:35:31,760
so

2481
01:35:36,870 --> 01:35:33,920
we're still looking into it i i i think

2482
01:35:39,030 --> 01:35:36,880
that some of it a small portion might be

2483
01:35:41,590 --> 01:35:39,040
factual but the

2484
01:35:43,990 --> 01:35:41,600
the whole story i don't think is

2485
01:35:45,910 --> 01:35:44,000
and again you deny that it was you that

2486
01:35:46,550 --> 01:35:45,920
wrote it or that had anything to do with

2487
01:35:58,870 --> 01:35:46,560
it

2488
01:36:01,750 --> 01:35:58,880
i i think i know who probably did

2489
01:36:04,310 --> 01:36:01,760
and i think i know why

2490
01:36:07,510 --> 01:36:04,320
but it's very complex and i'm not about

2491
01:36:09,430 --> 01:36:07,520
to i'm not ready to disclose that

2492
01:36:11,270 --> 01:36:09,440
okay i guess

2493
01:36:12,709 --> 01:36:11,280
we have to move on and i would say that

2494
01:36:16,229 --> 01:36:12,719
the next thing that i really always

2495
01:36:18,070 --> 01:36:16,239
wanted to ask you about is the aviary

2496
01:36:19,430 --> 01:36:18,080
and your

2497
01:36:21,270 --> 01:36:19,440
part in that

2498
01:36:22,950 --> 01:36:21,280
you say that you came in was already

2499
01:36:25,189 --> 01:36:22,960
existing a lot of people say that you

2500
01:36:26,550 --> 01:36:25,199
had something to do with it that bill

2501
01:36:29,270 --> 01:36:26,560
moore was

2502
01:36:31,189 --> 01:36:29,280
really your asset as an intelligence

2503
01:36:32,470 --> 01:36:31,199
officer and it's a shame what happened

2504
01:36:34,390 --> 01:36:32,480
to bill moore

2505
01:36:35,189 --> 01:36:34,400
and and that whole story and a lot of

2506
01:36:36,870 --> 01:36:35,199
people

2507
01:36:38,950 --> 01:36:36,880
like grant cameron think that that was

2508
01:36:40,790 --> 01:36:38,960
an attempt at disclosure

2509
01:36:41,669 --> 01:36:40,800
giving him this information and all

2510
01:36:43,990 --> 01:36:41,679
these

2511
01:36:46,390 --> 01:36:44,000
sources and things like that

2512
01:36:48,070 --> 01:36:46,400
and you were kind of code named falcon

2513
01:36:50,470 --> 01:36:48,080
but you weren't the falcon isn't that

2514
01:36:52,470 --> 01:36:50,480
right because later somebody

2515
01:36:56,229 --> 01:36:52,480
gave the true identity or the so-called

2516
01:37:02,149 --> 01:36:58,629
the truth of the matter is

2517
01:37:04,790 --> 01:37:02,159
jamie shandira started the aviary

2518
01:37:08,229 --> 01:37:04,800
and along with

2519
01:37:10,550 --> 01:37:08,239
some others i had no idea

2520
01:37:13,030 --> 01:37:10,560
that avery existed until bill moore

2521
01:37:14,310 --> 01:37:13,040
brought it up to me and then jamie sat

2522
01:37:17,109 --> 01:37:14,320
down at a

2523
01:37:19,189 --> 01:37:17,119
cafe in i mean in a restaurant

2524
01:37:21,430 --> 01:37:19,199
in van nuys california

2525
01:37:23,030 --> 01:37:21,440
and gave me a list of all the aviaries

2526
01:37:25,510 --> 01:37:23,040
and i said what is this he said that's

2527
01:37:28,070 --> 01:37:25,520
what we're referring to everybody as

2528
01:37:29,109 --> 01:37:28,080
and i said who made this up and he years

2529
01:37:31,350 --> 01:37:29,119
he did

2530
01:37:33,109 --> 01:37:31,360
and i said well okay you know uh

2531
01:37:35,350 --> 01:37:33,119
you know okay if you guys want to prefer

2532
01:37:37,910 --> 01:37:35,360
that that's fine i didn't i never

2533
01:37:40,390 --> 01:37:37,920
participated i never sent anything out

2534
01:37:43,109 --> 01:37:40,400
calling each other bird names i never

2535
01:37:44,470 --> 01:37:43,119
did any of that that was all jamie

2536
01:37:47,109 --> 01:37:44,480
and bill moore

2537
01:37:48,950 --> 01:37:47,119
and joe jaeger those those are the the

2538
01:37:51,189 --> 01:37:48,960
main players in in

2539
01:37:52,470 --> 01:37:51,199
aviary and i had absolutely nothing to

2540
01:37:53,990 --> 01:37:52,480
do with it

2541
01:37:56,229 --> 01:37:54,000
well again you've been credited with

2542
01:37:57,590 --> 01:37:56,239
either creating it or starting it or

2543
01:37:59,030 --> 01:37:57,600
doing something

2544
01:38:07,990 --> 01:37:59,040
you know

2545
01:38:11,510 --> 01:38:09,590
well that's great that's why we're here

2546
01:38:13,109 --> 01:38:11,520
is to get to your side of the story

2547
01:38:15,109 --> 01:38:13,119
because i don't think

2548
01:38:16,870 --> 01:38:15,119
that anybody's heard your sided story on

2549
01:38:19,109 --> 01:38:16,880
so many of these things and again your

2550
01:38:21,030 --> 01:38:19,119
name comes up and all of these things

2551
01:38:23,590 --> 01:38:21,040
like the aviary and i grew up kind of

2552
01:38:26,149 --> 01:38:23,600
going ooh you know richard doty is the

2553
01:38:28,390 --> 01:38:26,159
falcon and it turns out it was somebody

2554
01:38:29,910 --> 01:38:28,400
else that was the falcon and you were

2555
01:38:35,109 --> 01:38:29,920
just had a peripheral sort of

2556
01:38:37,590 --> 01:38:36,070
yeah the

2557
01:38:39,669 --> 01:38:37,600
the felt because the real falcon has

2558
01:38:41,669 --> 01:38:39,679
already been identified and

2559
01:38:44,950 --> 01:38:41,679
a lot of people have verified it i mean

2560
01:38:46,629 --> 01:38:44,960
really legitimate ufo uh people have

2561
01:38:50,149 --> 01:38:46,639
verified it and

2562
01:38:52,550 --> 01:38:50,159
so and and so i you know i wasn't

2563
01:38:54,310 --> 01:38:52,560
uh i was credited with information

2564
01:38:57,350 --> 01:38:54,320
coming from the falcon

2565
01:38:58,950 --> 01:38:57,360
and i just let it rather than trying to

2566
01:39:01,109 --> 01:38:58,960
discredit the people who were saying

2567
01:39:02,870 --> 01:39:01,119
that i just let it let it go let them

2568
01:39:04,550 --> 01:39:02,880
think that i was about falcon but i

2569
01:39:06,790 --> 01:39:04,560
wasn't

2570
01:39:09,350 --> 01:39:06,800
wow and so just like

2571
01:39:11,590 --> 01:39:09,360
i mean if you go back to the ufo

2572
01:39:13,109 --> 01:39:11,600
the live program that they're i was just

2573
01:39:14,790 --> 01:39:13,119
going to ask you about that because

2574
01:39:16,310 --> 01:39:14,800
people have said that you were in the

2575
01:39:18,470 --> 01:39:16,320
audience is it true that you were in the

2576
01:39:21,030 --> 01:39:18,480
audience when they taped that absolutely

2577
01:39:23,109 --> 01:39:21,040
not that's been proven i mean i proved

2578
01:39:25,350 --> 01:39:23,119
this in a court of law

2579
01:39:27,510 --> 01:39:25,360
that i was at the state police academy

2580
01:39:28,950 --> 01:39:27,520
in santa fe during that time frame from

2581
01:39:33,590 --> 01:39:28,960
august

2582
01:39:35,669 --> 01:39:33,600
to the middle of december of 1988 that

2583
01:39:36,870 --> 01:39:35,679
was a i was a cadet in the police

2584
01:39:39,510 --> 01:39:36,880
academy

2585
01:39:43,109 --> 01:39:39,520
and i i mean my

2586
01:39:46,149 --> 01:39:43,119
instructors my fellow cadets verified

2587
01:39:49,189 --> 01:39:46,159
that and documents and so forth and so

2588
01:39:51,910 --> 01:39:49,199
on so i could not have ever been

2589
01:39:53,430 --> 01:39:51,920
in washington or i mean in

2590
01:39:55,030 --> 01:39:53,440
los angeles

2591
01:39:57,830 --> 01:39:55,040
uh

2592
01:39:58,790 --> 01:39:57,840
when this aired so that's been proven

2593
01:39:59,750 --> 01:39:58,800
wrong

2594
01:40:01,109 --> 01:39:59,760
okay

2595
01:40:03,030 --> 01:40:01,119
like i said that's what we're here to do

2596
01:40:04,629 --> 01:40:03,040
is to get to the truth one of the other

2597
01:40:06,550 --> 01:40:04,639
things that i think is very important to

2598
01:40:08,950 --> 01:40:06,560
ask you about we mentioned that recent

2599
01:40:11,270 --> 01:40:08,960
call-in you had to jimmy church's show

2600
01:40:13,189 --> 01:40:11,280
and how people were analyzing every word

2601
01:40:14,870 --> 01:40:13,199
you said and all of this stuff and one

2602
01:40:16,149 --> 01:40:14,880
of the things you touched on is that the

2603
01:40:17,910 --> 01:40:16,159
air force

2604
01:40:20,390 --> 01:40:17,920
office of special intelligence for which

2605
01:40:23,270 --> 01:40:20,400
you worked was sending you and other

2606
01:40:25,910 --> 01:40:23,280
agents out to ufo conferences

2607
01:40:27,750 --> 01:40:25,920
to learn about what the people in the

2608
01:40:30,629 --> 01:40:27,760
ufo field knew

2609
01:40:33,590 --> 01:40:30,639
can you talk a little bit about that

2610
01:40:35,030 --> 01:40:33,600
yeah absolutely that was that was uh

2611
01:40:36,709 --> 01:40:35,040
that's common

2612
01:40:38,629 --> 01:40:36,719
and they're still doing it today i mean

2613
01:40:41,109 --> 01:40:38,639
i go to ufo conventions i can pick the

2614
01:40:44,310 --> 01:40:41,119
intelligence officers out i i know and

2615
01:40:47,030 --> 01:40:44,320
look down guy he's in values intel

2616
01:40:49,109 --> 01:40:47,040
it's just common it's common practice to

2617
01:40:51,750 --> 01:40:49,119
go out and find out what

2618
01:40:54,149 --> 01:40:51,760
what information the ufo community has

2619
01:40:55,910 --> 01:40:54,159
what new information is being surfaced

2620
01:40:58,629 --> 01:40:55,920
are they are they

2621
01:41:01,270 --> 01:40:58,639
are the ufo community uh tapped into

2622
01:41:03,189 --> 01:41:01,280
some of our classified programs have

2623
01:41:05,510 --> 01:41:03,199
they taken pictures of a classified

2624
01:41:07,350 --> 01:41:05,520
drone are they doing this and that's

2625
01:41:09,030 --> 01:41:07,360
just that's what they're doing and

2626
01:41:10,790 --> 01:41:09,040
and that's i mean

2627
01:41:12,550 --> 01:41:10,800
i think the people should be thankful

2628
01:41:15,030 --> 01:41:12,560
that our government works that way and

2629
01:41:17,109 --> 01:41:15,040
they keep track of what's going on

2630
01:41:19,030 --> 01:41:17,119
and gathering the intelligence well one

2631
01:41:20,070 --> 01:41:19,040
point that uh somebody brought up is

2632
01:41:22,149 --> 01:41:20,080
that

2633
01:41:23,990 --> 01:41:22,159
you know i'm not sure so i'm just going

2634
01:41:26,550 --> 01:41:24,000
to ask you straight out

2635
01:41:28,790 --> 01:41:26,560
this is this is united states citizens

2636
01:41:31,910 --> 01:41:28,800
on united states soil at these ufo

2637
01:41:34,550 --> 01:41:31,920
conventions isn't it almost illegal to

2638
01:41:36,390 --> 01:41:34,560
be surveilling and reporting on

2639
01:41:37,990 --> 01:41:36,400
u.s citizens

2640
01:41:39,750 --> 01:41:38,000
private citizens

2641
01:41:43,350 --> 01:41:39,760
and how do you feel about that or your

2642
01:41:48,070 --> 01:41:45,510
there's nothing illegal

2643
01:41:51,510 --> 01:41:48,080
there's absolutely nothing illegal

2644
01:41:53,430 --> 01:41:51,520
about collecting information from open

2645
01:41:55,590 --> 01:41:53,440
and open public forum

2646
01:41:57,750 --> 01:41:55,600
the the these intelligence officers

2647
01:41:59,910 --> 01:41:57,760
didn't break into anybody's house they

2648
01:42:01,189 --> 01:41:59,920
didn't break in anybody's room they

2649
01:42:03,109 --> 01:42:01,199
didn't uh

2650
01:42:05,510 --> 01:42:03,119
break into the conference they they

2651
01:42:07,189 --> 01:42:05,520
bought tickets to go into the conference

2652
01:42:09,590 --> 01:42:07,199
uh

2653
01:42:11,910 --> 01:42:09,600
all these things have been

2654
01:42:13,990 --> 01:42:11,920
analyzed and cleared by

2655
01:42:17,270 --> 01:42:14,000
by supervisors at least when i was in

2656
01:42:19,669 --> 01:42:17,280
i'm not talking about now when i was in

2657
01:42:21,270 --> 01:42:19,679
uh we were we were tasked with going to

2658
01:42:23,109 --> 01:42:21,280
different places and

2659
01:42:25,350 --> 01:42:23,119
and collecting information and open

2660
01:42:27,270 --> 01:42:25,360
sources i mean if you're driving down

2661
01:42:29,590 --> 01:42:27,280
the road and you see somebody doing

2662
01:42:31,430 --> 01:42:29,600
something over the side of the road

2663
01:42:33,189 --> 01:42:31,440
and you report it

2664
01:42:35,350 --> 01:42:33,199
how can that be illegal

2665
01:42:36,310 --> 01:42:35,360
it's not illegal nothing nothing that we

2666
01:42:40,470 --> 01:42:36,320
did

2667
01:42:43,430 --> 01:42:40,480
illegal everything was sanctioned

2668
01:42:46,709 --> 01:42:43,440
we were federal agents uh we would if if

2669
01:42:48,390 --> 01:42:46,719
we had to uh get a search warrant or a

2670
01:42:50,629 --> 01:42:48,400
subpoena or something like that we'd do

2671
01:42:52,070 --> 01:42:50,639
that i mean and we did a lot of that

2672
01:42:54,709 --> 01:42:52,080
information and we did a lot of those

2673
01:42:56,790 --> 01:42:54,719
things too i mean to get into some place

2674
01:42:58,629 --> 01:42:56,800
to collect information or serve a

2675
01:42:59,669 --> 01:42:58,639
subpoena or a search warrant or

2676
01:43:02,709 --> 01:42:59,679
something

2677
01:43:05,750 --> 01:43:02,719
we did but just to go out to an open

2678
01:43:07,830 --> 01:43:05,760
public event and listen to people talk

2679
01:43:09,990 --> 01:43:07,840
and reporting it is not is that elected

2680
01:43:12,470 --> 01:43:10,000
against the law well i have heard in the

2681
01:43:14,390 --> 01:43:12,480
paul benowitz case that that guy's house

2682
01:43:16,550 --> 01:43:14,400
was wiretapped and that he had people

2683
01:43:19,189 --> 01:43:16,560
surveilling him what about that is was

2684
01:43:22,229 --> 01:43:20,790
well

2685
01:43:23,750 --> 01:43:22,239
that wasn't us

2686
01:43:26,229 --> 01:43:23,760
that was the national security

2687
01:43:28,870 --> 01:43:26,239
administration nsa

2688
01:43:30,070 --> 01:43:28,880
agency the nsa

2689
01:43:31,990 --> 01:43:30,080
uh

2690
01:43:34,550 --> 01:43:32,000
they were

2691
01:43:36,790 --> 01:43:34,560
uh collecting information on

2692
01:43:39,270 --> 01:43:36,800
paul benowitz unbeknownst to

2693
01:43:41,669 --> 01:43:39,280
to me and because i was the case agent

2694
01:43:43,750 --> 01:43:41,679
on and on that case

2695
01:43:47,189 --> 01:43:43,760
uh and and they were collecting

2696
01:43:49,510 --> 01:43:47,199
information now as far as breaking in

2697
01:43:52,470 --> 01:43:49,520
and wiretapping

2698
01:43:54,310 --> 01:43:52,480
i know nothing about i never did that

2699
01:43:59,030 --> 01:43:54,320
the only thing we did

2700
01:44:02,629 --> 01:43:59,040
was we uh we got permission from uh paul

2701
01:44:05,270 --> 01:44:02,639
to place a device on his computer

2702
01:44:07,990 --> 01:44:05,280
and and he gave us written permission to

2703
01:44:11,109 --> 01:44:08,000
do it i mean it wasn't we didn't do it

2704
01:44:13,430 --> 01:44:11,119
uh illegally and and we and we aim we

2705
01:44:14,550 --> 01:44:13,440
explained to him what why we were doing

2706
01:44:17,669 --> 01:44:14,560
it because

2707
01:44:20,390 --> 01:44:17,679
how he was collecting these images was

2708
01:44:23,189 --> 01:44:20,400
was very crude and we were we could do

2709
01:44:25,350 --> 01:44:23,199
it in a better manner and and and

2710
01:44:26,310 --> 01:44:25,360
everything that we were doing we shared

2711
01:44:27,189 --> 01:44:26,320
with him

2712
01:44:29,830 --> 01:44:27,199
so

2713
01:44:32,070 --> 01:44:29,840
well i would say most of what we did as

2714
01:44:34,709 --> 01:44:32,080
far as that we shared with him but we

2715
01:44:37,669 --> 01:44:34,719
got his permission to do it so

2716
01:44:39,830 --> 01:44:37,679
the wiretap that was found on his phone

2717
01:44:40,550 --> 01:44:39,840
and he found it because he he discovered

2718
01:44:45,510 --> 01:44:40,560
it

2719
01:44:47,270 --> 01:44:45,520
so

2720
01:44:49,350 --> 01:44:47,280
we didn't do it

2721
01:44:51,430 --> 01:44:49,360
but did you have knowledge that nsa was

2722
01:44:53,109 --> 01:44:51,440
surveilling him while you were involved

2723
01:44:56,070 --> 01:44:53,119
in him no you didn't have nothing yeah

2724
01:44:58,790 --> 01:44:56,080
absolutely not fact we caught

2725
01:44:59,830 --> 01:44:58,800
we were at paul's house in a rainy

2726
01:45:03,590 --> 01:44:59,840
uh

2727
01:45:05,830 --> 01:45:03,600
fall late fall night and and across the

2728
01:45:08,229 --> 01:45:05,840
street from paul's house

2729
01:45:09,830 --> 01:45:08,239
i saw myself in jerry miller the other

2730
01:45:12,149 --> 01:45:09,840
age the other person that was there with

2731
01:45:14,149 --> 01:45:12,159
us with me we looked across and we saw

2732
01:45:15,510 --> 01:45:14,159
some flashlights in the apartment across

2733
01:45:17,590 --> 01:45:15,520
the house across

2734
01:45:19,430 --> 01:45:17,600
the road from paul and i asked paul i

2735
01:45:21,669 --> 01:45:19,440
said is anybody living in the house

2736
01:45:23,109 --> 01:45:21,679
because i had i had previous knowledge

2737
01:45:24,950 --> 01:45:23,119
that nobody lived there

2738
01:45:26,790 --> 01:45:24,960
and he paul said no no there's nobody

2739
01:45:28,390 --> 01:45:26,800
living i said there was somebody's in

2740
01:45:29,270 --> 01:45:28,400
the house look at the flashlights over

2741
01:45:31,189 --> 01:45:29,280
there

2742
01:45:33,910 --> 01:45:31,199
so myself

2743
01:45:34,870 --> 01:45:33,920
and and i called a friend uh i called

2744
01:45:36,070 --> 01:45:34,880
the uh

2745
01:45:37,669 --> 01:45:36,080
officer from albuquerque police

2746
01:45:39,669 --> 01:45:37,679
department a detective to come over

2747
01:45:40,709 --> 01:45:39,679
there and and there was a uniform

2748
01:45:42,870 --> 01:45:40,719
officer

2749
01:45:45,109 --> 01:45:42,880
that came over and i went across the

2750
01:45:47,350 --> 01:45:45,119
street and we confronted these two guys

2751
01:45:49,270 --> 01:45:47,360
coming out of this house

2752
01:45:51,270 --> 01:45:49,280
well they they

2753
01:45:52,229 --> 01:45:51,280
they rented the house

2754
01:45:56,070 --> 01:45:52,239
and

2755
01:45:59,189 --> 01:45:56,080
the rental vehicle

2756
01:46:01,830 --> 01:45:59,199
and we later figured out who rented them

2757
01:46:04,229 --> 01:46:01,840
nsa rented them employees out of denver

2758
01:46:05,510 --> 01:46:04,239
and when we confronted the guys they

2759
01:46:07,590 --> 01:46:05,520
they pull out their conditionals and

2760
01:46:09,030 --> 01:46:07,600
said we're nsa and i said what are you

2761
01:46:11,830 --> 01:46:09,040
doing here you said well we got a

2762
01:46:12,790 --> 01:46:11,840
surveillance population going on i said

2763
01:46:13,910 --> 01:46:12,800
where

2764
01:46:15,910 --> 01:46:13,920
he said well i can't tell you that

2765
01:46:18,390 --> 01:46:15,920
because you don't have a need to know

2766
01:46:20,870 --> 01:46:18,400
i mean so we figured out you know that

2767
01:46:22,470 --> 01:46:20,880
that it was paused well the next day i

2768
01:46:25,350 --> 01:46:22,480
went out to the base

2769
01:46:28,310 --> 01:46:25,360
and i went to the nsa security officer

2770
01:46:30,870 --> 01:46:28,320
for for the base and as they as security

2771
01:46:31,990 --> 01:46:30,880
personnel and i confronted him i said

2772
01:46:33,910 --> 01:46:32,000
what are you guys doing with paul

2773
01:46:35,590 --> 01:46:33,920
benowitz that's our case

2774
01:46:37,669 --> 01:46:35,600
he said well i can't i can't really

2775
01:46:39,109 --> 01:46:37,679
brief you in on it because i said no you

2776
01:46:41,030 --> 01:46:39,119
will brief me in on it because of our

2777
01:46:43,350 --> 01:46:41,040
case wow

2778
01:46:45,189 --> 01:46:43,360
and so so anyways

2779
01:46:48,470 --> 01:46:45,199
we got into somewhat of a fishing

2780
01:46:50,070 --> 01:46:48,480
contest and and and they they eventually

2781
01:46:50,950 --> 01:46:50,080
disclosed that they had a surveillance

2782
01:46:52,390 --> 01:46:50,960
on him

2783
01:46:54,310 --> 01:46:52,400
and so

2784
01:46:56,149 --> 01:46:54,320
they admitted to us but we had we had no

2785
01:46:58,550 --> 01:46:56,159
knowledge of it and we didn't want any

2786
01:47:01,109 --> 01:46:58,560
part of them because they were doing it

2787
01:47:02,070 --> 01:47:01,119
covertly or condescendingly we weren't

2788
01:47:03,669 --> 01:47:02,080
we were

2789
01:47:05,590 --> 01:47:03,679
everything was open

2790
01:47:07,590 --> 01:47:05,600
with paul they taught they never

2791
01:47:09,350 --> 01:47:07,600
interviewed paul and they really didn't

2792
01:47:11,669 --> 01:47:09,360
have a mandate

2793
01:47:13,750 --> 01:47:11,679
a jurisdictional mandate to do that we

2794
01:47:16,229 --> 01:47:13,760
did we were federal agents they weren't

2795
01:47:18,790 --> 01:47:16,239
they weren't law enforcement they they

2796
01:47:19,669 --> 01:47:18,800
shouldn't have been able to do that

2797
01:47:21,669 --> 01:47:19,679
but

2798
01:47:24,629 --> 01:47:21,679
somehow they did get a warrant they they

2799
01:47:26,149 --> 01:47:24,639
had a valid uh federal warrant

2800
01:47:28,390 --> 01:47:26,159
i don't know who got it for him whether

2801
01:47:30,790 --> 01:47:28,400
the fbi got it although the fbi agent

2802
01:47:32,790 --> 01:47:30,800
that worked with me on this case had no

2803
01:47:34,709 --> 01:47:32,800
knew nothing about it either

2804
01:47:36,390 --> 01:47:34,719
so

2805
01:47:38,070 --> 01:47:36,400
that's how nsa became

2806
01:47:40,070 --> 01:47:38,080
well i guess that explains that part of

2807
01:47:41,830 --> 01:47:40,080
the story you know and i also wanted to

2808
01:47:44,390 --> 01:47:41,840
ask you again in relation to a recent

2809
01:47:46,229 --> 01:47:44,400
call you made in you mentioned that air

2810
01:47:47,990 --> 01:47:46,239
force office of special intelligence

2811
01:47:50,070 --> 01:47:48,000
intelligence officers all these other

2812
01:47:51,109 --> 01:47:50,080
people are at ufo conferences and that

2813
01:47:52,950 --> 01:47:51,119
some of them

2814
01:47:54,390 --> 01:47:52,960
have people in the ufo community that

2815
01:47:57,109 --> 01:47:54,400
are assets

2816
01:48:00,550 --> 01:47:57,119
and you had bill moore as an asset and

2817
01:48:02,310 --> 01:48:00,560
maybe a few others and i suppose that

2818
01:48:05,669 --> 01:48:02,320
the people that were doing the same

2819
01:48:08,709 --> 01:48:05,679
thing you were had assets within the ufo

2820
01:48:10,629 --> 01:48:08,719
community and of course that can kind of

2821
01:48:13,189 --> 01:48:10,639
people kind of said well he said that

2822
01:48:15,270 --> 01:48:13,199
it's so paranoid in the ufo community

2823
01:48:17,350 --> 01:48:15,280
about who's you know working for the

2824
01:48:18,870 --> 01:48:17,360
government people are very interested in

2825
01:48:21,350 --> 01:48:18,880
this and you mentioned that there was a

2826
01:48:24,310 --> 01:48:21,360
few people including some people who

2827
01:48:25,990 --> 01:48:24,320
have very well known names that were

2828
01:48:27,109 --> 01:48:26,000
sort of working with or for the

2829
01:48:29,270 --> 01:48:27,119
government

2830
01:48:33,189 --> 01:48:29,280
can you elaborate on that at all because

2831
01:48:36,870 --> 01:48:33,199
people would really like you too

2832
01:48:40,070 --> 01:48:36,880
well there were there were um

2833
01:48:43,189 --> 01:48:40,080
there yeah we did have sources within

2834
01:48:45,510 --> 01:48:43,199
the ufo community uh i did bill moore

2835
01:48:47,750 --> 01:48:45,520
but bill moore actually started out as

2836
01:48:49,430 --> 01:48:47,760
being a a

2837
01:48:51,669 --> 01:48:49,440
asset for

2838
01:48:53,990 --> 01:48:51,679
an espionage operation not damaging it

2839
01:48:55,430 --> 01:48:54,000
with ufos initially and then it then

2840
01:48:58,629 --> 01:48:55,440
blossomed into

2841
01:49:00,390 --> 01:48:58,639
him being a member of a pro and

2842
01:49:03,350 --> 01:49:00,400
and so anyway

2843
01:49:04,870 --> 01:49:03,360
uh so that's how he was my asset

2844
01:49:08,149 --> 01:49:04,880
and there were there were a couple

2845
01:49:10,070 --> 01:49:08,159
others that i used uh that that were my

2846
01:49:11,109 --> 01:49:10,080
assets that were

2847
01:49:12,190 --> 01:49:11,119
involved in

2848
01:49:13,350 --> 01:49:12,200
ufo uh

2849
01:49:16,709 --> 01:49:13,360
[Music]

2850
01:49:19,350 --> 01:49:16,719
investigation either april and mufan

2851
01:49:22,229 --> 01:49:19,360
but uh and then i'm sure around the

2852
01:49:25,350 --> 01:49:22,239
country there were others used

2853
01:49:27,430 --> 01:49:25,360
they used the ufo uh

2854
01:49:29,430 --> 01:49:27,440
sources of information and that was

2855
01:49:31,270 --> 01:49:29,440
acceptable we weren't doing anything we

2856
01:49:33,990 --> 01:49:31,280
weren't wiretapping we were just

2857
01:49:35,830 --> 01:49:34,000
collecting information from them

2858
01:49:37,270 --> 01:49:35,840
do you think that still happens today

2859
01:49:40,149 --> 01:49:37,280
are there still people in the ufo

2860
01:49:41,589 --> 01:49:40,159
community today that were sort of

2861
01:49:43,589 --> 01:49:41,599
feeding information to government

2862
01:49:46,709 --> 01:49:43,599
sources

2863
01:49:48,950 --> 01:49:46,719
i'm not involved anymore i let me clear

2864
01:49:50,229 --> 01:49:48,960
something up you keep saying air force

2865
01:49:52,470 --> 01:49:50,239
office of and

2866
01:49:55,189 --> 01:49:52,480
intelligence air force officers i

2867
01:49:57,030 --> 01:49:55,199
apologize this this uh you know i always

2868
01:49:59,589 --> 01:49:57,040
have a problem with what i call alphabet

2869
01:50:01,990 --> 01:49:59,599
soup you know there's so many din

2870
01:50:03,910 --> 01:50:02,000
nsa you're you're entirely correct you

2871
01:50:05,350 --> 01:50:03,920
work for the air force office of special

2872
01:50:06,709 --> 01:50:05,360
intelligence and i apologize for

2873
01:50:08,950 --> 01:50:06,719
misspeaking that

2874
01:50:11,510 --> 01:50:08,960
a special investigation not intelligence

2875
01:50:15,189 --> 01:50:11,520
i'm sorry air force office of special

2876
01:50:18,950 --> 01:50:17,189
i have the i have the acronym in front

2877
01:50:19,550 --> 01:50:18,960
of me it's one of the alphabet soups you

2878
01:50:21,189 --> 01:50:19,560
know

2879
01:50:26,709 --> 01:50:21,199
a-o-f-s-i

2880
01:50:29,430 --> 01:50:28,070
i always call it alphabet i don't work

2881
01:50:32,790 --> 01:50:29,440
for the government

2882
01:50:35,350 --> 01:50:32,800
anymore and still i don't know what the

2883
01:50:37,830 --> 01:50:35,360
what the government's doing as far as

2884
01:50:38,790 --> 01:50:37,840
uh using uh people within the ufo

2885
01:50:40,550 --> 01:50:38,800
community

2886
01:50:42,790 --> 01:50:40,560
yes probably you didn't imagine there

2887
01:50:44,629 --> 01:50:42,800
was a bank there was a big name person

2888
01:50:46,070 --> 01:50:44,639
in the ufo community that's never been

2889
01:50:48,070 --> 01:50:46,080
revealed to have been a government

2890
01:50:50,390 --> 01:50:48,080
source and people are very curious as to

2891
01:50:51,669 --> 01:50:50,400
who that is and you know who it is and i

2892
01:50:53,910 --> 01:50:51,679
don't blame you if you don't want to

2893
01:50:57,189 --> 01:50:53,920
reveal that person but people want me to

2894
01:50:59,669 --> 01:50:57,199
ask you who that person is

2895
01:51:02,950 --> 01:50:59,679
well there's two there's two

2896
01:51:03,830 --> 01:51:02,960
big big big people within ufo community

2897
01:51:06,390 --> 01:51:03,840
that

2898
01:51:08,870 --> 01:51:06,400
i wouldn't trust with any information

2899
01:51:11,990 --> 01:51:08,880
because everything that

2900
01:51:15,189 --> 01:51:12,000
they get goes through the government and

2901
01:51:16,790 --> 01:51:15,199
i know today that they still are

2902
01:51:19,589 --> 01:51:16,800
and i i'm not going to disclose their

2903
01:51:21,669 --> 01:51:19,599
names on and and you know but but i

2904
01:51:24,390 --> 01:51:21,679
think there's some people within the ufo

2905
01:51:26,229 --> 01:51:24,400
community that that know that know who

2906
01:51:28,149 --> 01:51:26,239
they are

2907
01:51:29,510 --> 01:51:28,159
wow that's that's pretty uh that's

2908
01:51:32,790 --> 01:51:29,520
pretty

2909
01:51:34,070 --> 01:51:32,800
somebody's out there in the field and

2910
01:51:35,109 --> 01:51:34,080
they're really working for the

2911
01:51:36,470 --> 01:51:35,119
government

2912
01:51:37,750 --> 01:51:36,480
and their stuff is going through so i

2913
01:51:40,149 --> 01:51:37,760
wouldn't say they're working for the

2914
01:51:42,709 --> 01:51:40,159
government but i'm saying that that

2915
01:51:45,030 --> 01:51:42,719
they're cooperating it and i don't know

2916
01:51:46,950 --> 01:51:45,040
that they're actually working for one

2917
01:51:49,189 --> 01:51:46,960
or being paid or anything like that i

2918
01:51:50,870 --> 01:51:49,199
don't know that is this a situation is

2919
01:51:53,109 --> 01:51:50,880
this a situation like bill moore they're

2920
01:51:54,629 --> 01:51:53,119
doing that to get information from the

2921
01:51:56,790 --> 01:51:54,639
government or in the hopes of getting

2922
01:51:58,950 --> 01:51:56,800
information through the government so

2923
01:52:00,790 --> 01:51:58,960
they're cooperating yes

2924
01:52:03,510 --> 01:52:00,800
yes

2925
01:52:05,910 --> 01:52:03,520
i'm sure that these get people are

2926
01:52:07,109 --> 01:52:05,920
getting some bits and pieces

2927
01:52:10,310 --> 01:52:07,119
i think the government's probably

2928
01:52:13,189 --> 01:52:10,320
throwing them bits and pieces i i i

2929
01:52:15,030 --> 01:52:13,199
i'm sure of that but i'm not positive

2930
01:52:18,950 --> 01:52:15,040
but i i guess that's probably what's

2931
01:52:20,870 --> 01:52:18,960
happening but uh i i sat at a conference

2932
01:52:23,030 --> 01:52:20,880
ufo conference a couple years ago with

2933
01:52:23,990 --> 01:52:23,040
with this particular person

2934
01:52:26,790 --> 01:52:24,000
and he

2935
01:52:28,709 --> 01:52:26,800
he wasn't he didn't hide it with me i

2936
01:52:31,830 --> 01:52:28,719
mean he didn't hide the fact

2937
01:52:33,750 --> 01:52:31,840
that he had this person this person and

2938
01:52:35,189 --> 01:52:33,760
this person has real good friends within

2939
01:52:37,350 --> 01:52:35,199
dia

2940
01:52:39,750 --> 01:52:37,360
well you just put two two together

2941
01:52:41,350 --> 01:52:39,760
figure that out

2942
01:52:43,189 --> 01:52:41,360
wow that's pretty amazing and you know i

2943
01:52:44,629 --> 01:52:43,199
have to say it's been a pretty amazing

2944
01:52:46,310 --> 01:52:44,639
interview i want to thank you very much

2945
01:52:47,910 --> 01:52:46,320
for taking part in it and maybe this

2946
01:52:52,149 --> 01:52:47,920
will set the record straight for some of

2947
01:52:53,090 --> 01:52:52,159
your incredible history in this field

2948
01:52:54,550 --> 01:52:53,100
i hope so

2949
01:52:56,470 --> 01:52:54,560
[Music]

2950
01:53:00,709 --> 01:52:56,480
and with that

2951
01:53:03,669 --> 01:53:00,719
mr richard doty bit us farewell

2952
01:53:06,070 --> 01:53:03,679
and i have to say that i agree with him

2953
01:53:07,750 --> 01:53:06,080
i hope so too

2954
01:53:09,910 --> 01:53:07,760
i hope tonight's

2955
01:53:11,669 --> 01:53:09,920
exclusive interview with the midnight

2956
01:53:12,870 --> 01:53:11,679
hour show

2957
01:53:15,270 --> 01:53:12,880
will help

2958
01:53:17,270 --> 01:53:15,280
to set the record straight

2959
01:53:18,709 --> 01:53:17,280
for some of this man's incredible

2960
01:53:21,910 --> 01:53:18,719
history

2961
01:53:23,189 --> 01:53:21,920
in this incredible phenomenon

2962
01:53:28,390 --> 01:53:23,199
that we will

2963
01:53:33,350 --> 01:53:30,709
and my friends i have to take a moment

2964
01:53:35,189 --> 01:53:33,360
to make a very important announcement on

2965
01:53:38,470 --> 01:53:35,199
a previous episode

2966
01:53:41,270 --> 01:53:38,480
i mentioned that i would do this thing

2967
01:53:42,629 --> 01:53:41,280
on my own if that's what it took i would

2968
01:53:44,310 --> 01:53:42,639
go it alone

2969
01:53:46,550 --> 01:53:44,320
but i'm happy to say

2970
01:53:49,350 --> 01:53:46,560
that here at the midnight hour show

2971
01:53:52,870 --> 01:53:49,360
we are forging new friendships

2972
01:53:55,910 --> 01:53:52,880
new partnerships and we have gotten new

2973
01:53:59,270 --> 01:53:55,920
allies and the most important

2974
01:54:00,550 --> 01:53:59,280
of those new allies is my new consulting

2975
01:54:02,310 --> 01:54:00,560
producer

2976
01:54:08,229 --> 01:54:02,320
richard charles

2977
01:54:10,870 --> 01:54:08,239
for a lot of the questions that we asked

2978
01:54:14,310 --> 01:54:10,880
mr dodie tonight he's had a lifelong

2979
01:54:16,229 --> 01:54:14,320
interest in mr richard dodie and helped

2980
01:54:18,790 --> 01:54:16,239
me prepare for this interview and i have

2981
01:54:21,109 --> 01:54:18,800
to say it would not have gone this well

2982
01:54:24,149 --> 01:54:21,119
if not for his help and i'm so

2983
01:54:26,390 --> 01:54:24,159
incredibly thankful for having him now

2984
01:54:28,470 --> 01:54:26,400
on our team

2985
01:54:32,310 --> 01:54:28,480
my new consulting producer richard

2986
01:54:34,149 --> 01:54:32,320
charles was born in 1977 in oklahoma at

2987
01:54:37,750 --> 01:54:34,159
an early age developed an interest in

2988
01:54:39,589 --> 01:54:37,760
computers technology and the paranormal

2989
01:54:42,950 --> 01:54:39,599
having first discovered the subject of

2990
01:54:44,870 --> 01:54:42,960
ufos in his elementary school library in

2991
01:54:46,950 --> 01:54:44,880
the early 90s

2992
01:54:48,390 --> 01:54:46,960
he ran a computer bulletin board system

2993
01:54:50,229 --> 01:54:48,400
just like me

2994
01:54:52,950 --> 01:54:50,239
before the internet came along and made

2995
01:54:55,189 --> 01:54:52,960
eds's obsolete today

2996
01:54:59,109 --> 01:54:55,199
richard is still a computer hobbyist and

2997
01:55:01,990 --> 01:54:59,119
enjoys 20th century history with a focus

2998
01:55:04,709 --> 01:55:02,000
on the cold war clandestine services and

2999
01:55:08,070 --> 01:55:04,719
likes to explore alternative history

3000
01:55:11,589 --> 01:55:08,080
conspiracy theories and the paranormal

3001
01:55:13,109 --> 01:55:11,599
in 1997 he wrote an essay on others

3002
01:55:15,589 --> 01:55:13,119
unknown

3003
01:55:18,070 --> 01:55:15,599
in the oklahoma city bombing that was

3004
01:55:19,350 --> 01:55:18,080
published in the conspiracy scene the

3005
01:55:20,870 --> 01:55:19,360
conformist

3006
01:55:22,390 --> 01:55:20,880
which has since been turned into a

3007
01:55:24,310 --> 01:55:22,400
manuscript

3008
01:55:26,790 --> 01:55:24,320
and i have to say folks that the

3009
01:55:28,709 --> 01:55:26,800
universe really does work in strange and

3010
01:55:32,470 --> 01:55:28,719
mysterious ways

3011
01:55:36,149 --> 01:55:32,480
and then of nowhere the universe sent me

3012
01:55:38,470 --> 01:55:36,159
the best help that i could possibly get

3013
01:55:40,229 --> 01:55:38,480
to make the show

3014
01:55:41,910 --> 01:55:40,239
ten times better

3015
01:55:43,990 --> 01:55:41,920
out of nowhere

3016
01:55:46,149 --> 01:55:44,000
came this man

3017
01:55:48,950 --> 01:55:46,159
who was one of the most incredibly

3018
01:55:52,550 --> 01:55:48,960
well-read intelligent

3019
01:55:55,189 --> 01:55:52,560
researchers i've ever talked to or met

3020
01:55:56,550 --> 01:55:55,199
in my entire life and i need someone

3021
01:55:58,390 --> 01:55:56,560
like him

3022
01:56:00,470 --> 01:55:58,400
and so we talked

3023
01:56:02,629 --> 01:56:00,480
and then we got the opportunity to do

3024
01:56:04,790 --> 01:56:02,639
this richard doty interview

3025
01:56:07,030 --> 01:56:04,800
and to be quite honest

3026
01:56:09,750 --> 01:56:07,040
it was a lifelong ambition

3027
01:56:11,589 --> 01:56:09,760
to interview this richard doty and i

3028
01:56:13,350 --> 01:56:11,599
needed somebody to help me do all kinds

3029
01:56:15,830 --> 01:56:13,360
of research and help me come up with the

3030
01:56:18,629 --> 01:56:15,840
best questions and all this stuff and i

3031
01:56:20,790 --> 01:56:18,639
gotta say he stepped up to the plate

3032
01:56:23,270 --> 01:56:20,800
better than anybody i've ever worked

3033
01:56:25,350 --> 01:56:23,280
with in my entire life

3034
01:56:28,390 --> 01:56:25,360
tonight's show was so good because of

3035
01:56:29,830 --> 01:56:28,400
him and i'm so happy to have him so

3036
01:56:32,149 --> 01:56:29,840
ladies and gentlemen

3037
01:56:33,270 --> 01:56:32,159
let's all welcome my new consulting

3038
01:56:39,109 --> 01:56:33,280
producer

3039
01:56:42,470 --> 01:56:41,430
and so after the show

3040
01:56:44,790 --> 01:56:42,480
i suppose

3041
01:56:47,030 --> 01:56:44,800
after the interview

3042
01:56:49,270 --> 01:56:47,040
i went off

3043
01:56:52,470 --> 01:56:49,280
as i mentioned previously you know i'm

3044
01:56:55,750 --> 01:56:52,480
here in the mountains of pennsylvania

3045
01:56:57,270 --> 01:56:55,760
in the middle of a huge forest

3046
01:56:59,270 --> 01:56:57,280
then

3047
01:57:01,910 --> 01:56:59,280
after the interview

3048
01:57:03,910 --> 01:57:01,920
i played it back to myself

3049
01:57:06,149 --> 01:57:03,920
i put it on my phone

3050
01:57:08,830 --> 01:57:06,159
so i could listen to it

3051
01:57:10,390 --> 01:57:08,840
i put on some earbuds

3052
01:57:12,310 --> 01:57:10,400
and

3053
01:57:14,390 --> 01:57:12,320
like i said previously i'm here in the

3054
01:57:16,070 --> 01:57:14,400
mountains of pennsylvania

3055
01:57:19,430 --> 01:57:16,080
and so

3056
01:57:20,310 --> 01:57:19,440
i put that interview on my phone

3057
01:57:21,830 --> 01:57:20,320
and

3058
01:57:24,470 --> 01:57:21,840
i walked around

3059
01:57:26,709 --> 01:57:24,480
in this huge forest

3060
01:57:29,990 --> 01:57:26,719
in the mountains of pennsylvania

3061
01:57:30,870 --> 01:57:30,000
in one of the most highest elevations

3062
01:57:33,030 --> 01:57:30,880
uh

3063
01:57:34,470 --> 01:57:33,040
at least in my state maybe in the

3064
01:57:35,990 --> 01:57:34,480
country

3065
01:57:37,270 --> 01:57:36,000
you know i'm very high up in the

3066
01:57:40,149 --> 01:57:37,280
mountains

3067
01:57:42,310 --> 01:57:40,159
and the stars the stars you see here up

3068
01:57:44,310 --> 01:57:42,320
in the mountains are different ask

3069
01:57:47,589 --> 01:57:44,320
anybody who's been here

3070
01:57:50,229 --> 01:57:47,599
i mean you can look up and see a canopy

3071
01:57:52,709 --> 01:57:50,239
of thousands and thousands and thousands

3072
01:57:55,750 --> 01:57:52,719
of stars it feels like you can see the

3073
01:57:57,910 --> 01:57:55,760
entire universe from up here

3074
01:57:59,430 --> 01:57:57,920
and i stood on the top of the mountain

3075
01:58:01,510 --> 01:57:59,440
and i wondered

3076
01:58:03,990 --> 01:58:01,520
what if it was true

3077
01:58:06,470 --> 01:58:04,000
what if other intelligent races really

3078
01:58:08,629 --> 01:58:06,480
are visiting us or have been visiting us

3079
01:58:11,030 --> 01:58:08,639
for years and our government has been

3080
01:58:13,910 --> 01:58:11,040
covering it up what if our guest tonight

3081
01:58:15,910 --> 01:58:13,920
told us the truth and let go of some

3082
01:58:17,990 --> 01:58:15,920
long-held secrets that the government

3083
01:58:20,629 --> 01:58:18,000
has been keeping for ages

3084
01:58:22,950 --> 01:58:20,639
tonight standing on a mountain covered

3085
01:58:25,589 --> 01:58:22,960
in a canopy of thousands of stars i

3086
01:58:27,070 --> 01:58:25,599
looked out into the universe and thought

3087
01:58:29,270 --> 01:58:27,080
if we have been visited by

3088
01:58:31,750 --> 01:58:29,280
extraterrestrial races

3089
01:58:33,589 --> 01:58:31,760
then no man has the right to keep that

3090
01:58:36,070 --> 01:58:33,599
truth from us

3091
01:58:37,669 --> 01:58:36,080
we have to keep fighting my friends

3092
01:58:40,229 --> 01:58:37,679
because the truth

3093
01:58:43,589 --> 01:58:40,239
the truth may be out there but we have

3094
01:58:46,629 --> 01:58:43,599
to keep fighting for it

3095
01:58:48,709 --> 01:58:46,639
and i for one my friends i'm gonna keep

3096
01:58:52,070 --> 01:58:48,719
fighting for it i'm gonna keep up the

3097
01:58:55,510 --> 01:58:52,080
good fight but i invite you to come

3098
01:58:58,149 --> 01:58:55,520
along and join us in that fight

3099
01:59:00,709 --> 01:58:58,159
if you have some amazing information

3100
01:59:02,790 --> 01:59:00,719
hey reach out to us you can reach us on

3101
01:59:04,550 --> 01:59:02,800
our new facebook page just search for

3102
01:59:07,189 --> 01:59:04,560
the midnight hour

3103
01:59:09,109 --> 01:59:07,199
or you could message me

3104
01:59:11,430 --> 01:59:09,119
at stevencambian on facebook it's

3105
01:59:13,910 --> 01:59:11,440
probably the best way to reach us

3106
01:59:16,149 --> 01:59:13,920
we're looking for new guests new friends

3107
01:59:18,070 --> 01:59:16,159
and new allies in the fight for

3108
01:59:19,990 --> 01:59:18,080
disclosure and

3109
01:59:22,870 --> 01:59:20,000
to find the truth

3110
01:59:24,709 --> 01:59:22,880
tonight tonight i think that we got to

3111
01:59:27,510 --> 01:59:24,719
some of that truth

3112
01:59:30,950 --> 01:59:27,520
but as someone else once said

3113
01:59:32,709 --> 01:59:30,960
this field is a hall of mirrors with a

3114
01:59:34,870 --> 01:59:32,719
quick sand floor

3115
01:59:36,629 --> 01:59:34,880
you're never quite sure what's real or

3116
01:59:38,629 --> 01:59:36,639
what's an illusion

3117
01:59:41,750 --> 01:59:38,639
that's probably why

3118
01:59:45,270 --> 01:59:41,760
it fascinates me to this day

3119
01:59:47,270 --> 01:59:45,280
well my fellow true seekers our time is

3120
01:59:48,950 --> 01:59:47,280
now running short

3121
01:59:51,189 --> 01:59:48,960
my name is stephen kim

3122
01:59:52,550 --> 01:59:51,199
also known as the mystery man

3123
01:59:55,189 --> 01:59:52,560
reminding you

3124
01:59:56,629 --> 01:59:55,199
that in a time of universal deceit

3125
01:59:58,950 --> 01:59:56,639
telling the truth

3126
02:00:01,030 --> 01:59:58,960
is a revolutionary act

3127
02:00:03,510 --> 02:00:01,040
and if you're listening to this

3128
02:00:05,350 --> 02:00:03,520
you're a part of that revolution

3129
02:00:12,160 --> 02:00:05,360
until next time folks